Rob Horgan
THE ‘decision of a generation’ is drawing ever nearer.
With just over a month to go before the Brexit referendum takes place, expats are running out of time to register to vote.
Polling stations may not open until June 23 but if you haven’t signed up before May 16 you will lose your right to have a say.
And it will affect you. Whether you like it or not.
Since the referendum was announced, everyone – allegedly including Her Majesty the Queen herself – has thrown their two cents (or pence) in.
In truth, it is hard to know who or what to believe, other than the fact every argument should be digested with a large pinch of salt.
Scaremongering has been the theme of the referendum run-in – on both sides of the fence – but the majority of industry experts, politicians and financial forecasters appear united in one view: Brexit spells bad news for expats and for Gibraltar.
Be it property investment, citizenship status or business ventures, almost 2 million expats and 30,000 Gibraltarians will be left in legal limbo should Britain depart the EU.
(And it is not just Brits living abroad who should be worried. Latest figures released by the Financial Times suggest 75% of European expats living in the UK will not qualify for work visas – that includes 96% of Europeans working on farms, 94% in hotels and 66% in the financial sector.)
So who should we believe? Here are nine of the most credible reasons to vote Remain and one (semi)logical argument to vote Leave:
Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund:
“Keeping Europe together after what it has gone through is a huge asset that has been vastly under-estimated. The risk of exit of the United Kingdom is a serious concern, a vote to leave could have significant implications for asset prices, in particular the exchange rate.”
Mark Carney, Governor of the Bank of England:
“Certain firms would take a view in terms of relocation. I cannot provide a blanket assurance that there would not be issues in the short term with respect to financial stability and that potential reduction in financial stability could be associated – and normally would be associated – with poor economic outcomes, as we have seen in the past.”
Simon Manley, British Ambassador to Spain:
“This is the most important issue Britain has faced in generations. It will determine the nature of our economy, our security and our society for generations to come. The truth is that we don’t know what the consequences would be should the British public choose to leave the EU, we can give people here absolutely no assurance about what will happen.”
Jean-Claude Trichet, former European Central Bank President:
“The main problem is that the UK is taking enormous risks, not only economically, financially but also historically. I am sure Brits will vote to stay in as it is so clearly against the interest of the UK.”
Vince Cable, Former business secretary:
“I am involved with the In campaign. It should be a foregone conclusion that we stay in, but for a whole lot of reasons the Brexit movement has a certain momentum. It is very confusing as the Brexit people are arguing for quite a lot of different things and will find a lot it very difficult to deliver some of what they are promising.”
Barack Obama, US President:
“Brexit would put the UK back of the queue for trade talks. Maybe some point down the line there might be a UK-US trade agreement, but it’s not going to happen any time soon because our focus is in negotiating with a big bloc, the European Union, to get a trade agreement done.”
Paul Drechsler, President of the Confederation of British Industry:
“We have to be careful we don’t think there’s a great new world out there for us. Brexit means a significant period of uncertainty (at least two years) while we work out the framework for our exit and the other 27 countries decide what they want to do. That’s two years of uncertainty and then however long it takes us to re-negotiate trade deals.”
David Lidington, UK European minister:
“Everything we take for granted about access to the single market – trade taking place without customs checks or paperwork at national frontiers, the right of British citizens to go and live in Spain or France – those would all be up in the air. It is massive what is at risk.”
Fabian Picardo, Chief Minister of Gibraltar:
“We have never before seen such unprecedented unity on what is not, at least directly, an attack on our British sovereignty. Without these EU obligations to us, Spain would almost have a free hand against us. A vote to leave the EU will result in the United Kingdom and Gibraltar being told that the price we would have to pay to continue to have access to the single market would be to accept joint sovereignty with Spain.”
Boris Johnson, former London Mayor:
“I would hope Europe would see a Vote Leave as a challenge, not just to strike a new and harmonious relationship with Britain but to recover some of the competitiveness that the continent has lost in the last decades.”
Boris sounds convincing. Not.
Multinationals destroying the middle class and removing workers rights, a small number of wealthy poeple making obscene profits selling goods and services in europe while giving the jobs/industry to slave-level workforces abroad…
vs
protectionism (like USA, China, Russia) & internal industry, proper border controls, openly democratic rule…
Again: How does the EU benefit me?
(I’m not an immigrant, nor a farmer, and i’m tired of everything in the shops being expensive but chinese crap)
“Again: How does the EU benefit me?”
@BigJon, take a look at “http://johnmccormick.eu/benefits-of-the-european-union/”
Here’s one reply from Simon Sweeney, Lecturer in international political economy, University of York about what the EU/EEC has done for us. A few things in there may ring a bell with you.
“What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU representation in international forums; bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO; EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; European arrest warrant; cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence; European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa; support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond; investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital. All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed. It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. “
Is this the bureaucracy and human rights burden which the Leavers would free us from?
Nine people speaking on behalf of Donors,Globalists,vested interests,un-elected Bureaucrats and Bankers,who have hood winked the people,and Boris who speaks up for the people,suffering from the actions of the aforementioned.Vote Leave.
Don’t let some facts get in the way of your argument Jonathan lol. Yes, the EU has a lot of problems, but you cannot deny that some of the things listed above have benefited you, have they not? Or have none of those things benefited you? Be interested in your reply.
Bigjon and Jonathan there seem to be a lot of people who will vote BREXIT as we and our friends will too! For reasons of UK sovereignty we prefer GB to be Independent and free of EU constraints & free loading MEPs who can each claim £48k pa without receipts I read recently, for us net costs of some £9.8 billion a year could go a long way to British problems like NHS, roads, infrastructure, housing etc although some will argue we get things in return, immigration is and will be a major issue in or out but Schengen must have provided ISIS routes easily, clean beaches what? Sewage still spills out along the South coast, how do we really know if airfares are lower by being in? The low cost carriers will still want customers and then the Gov’t may have to get rid of excessive APD. There are other reasons like Turkey trying to join, nightmare scenario. Lecturers and economists have differing opinions no doubt as the public do, EU this, EU that, how about sovereign nations this and that. Proper border controls again. If Club Med countries have serious financial issues in the North/South wealth divide, too bad, why should we prop them up to get olive oil or lemons from them?
This is my opinion and I’m not trying to change votes but we and our family and all but one of our friends think the EU is a corrupt mess, but the UK Gov’t are in panic mode and I wouldn’t be surprised if Cameron and Co do some jiggery pokery!
BREXIT for us!
Mike, please don’t peddle the flawed Schengen argument. The UK is not in Schengen, and so it has complete control of its borders already. Any immigration that is illegal is the UK’s fault. As for the NHS, the simple fact is that without immigration, staff numbers will fall massively and the NHS will be under greater risk of collapse. Read the list of things again that I quoted – it has no relevance that an academic wrote it, but you still had to mention it in order to try and undermine it. Are there any things in that list that you have benefited from, Mike? My point s that by all means criticise the EU, but give credit too, where it is deserved. When an argument is so biased to the negative, it is often also flawed.
As I said, the idiotic Schengen open borders policy has allowed terrorists to use easy access migrant routes, in and out of EU countries, the UK has border controls although weak. BTW So look forward to Turkey joining lol Nothing you say regarding this will change my stance on it! Re the NHS, the net saving of £10.8 billion pa just for one year should go a long way to improving that. You quoted a list written by some academic and I realise you couldn’t possibly have thought of all that. As for undermining, you are quite used to doing that on various others’ posts with snipes and ‘show me the links’. and when shown you then deny or twist things. People have views and freedom of speech and as you don’t live in the South of England you wouldn’t be aware of dirty beaches and sewage still being a major problem because you just posted what some academic listed.
Whilst people may accept the EU has benefitted them, I and many others believe it has been an unholy mess so BREXIT for us hopefully!
Mike, when you talk about Brexit and Schengen you peddle a mistruth. You list Schengen as a reason for Brexit, but then fail to say that the UK already has its own border controls and is not part of Schengen, so the issue is irrelevant in that context. Yes, within Schengen, people can move about freely, but that is nothing to do with the UK. That’s you twisting things Mike.
And it’s a good job I did “ask for the link” (once) previously, since it totally disproved what you said, when you peddled another mistruth and twisted the quote of one anti-EU MEP to mean a whole country. Remember that little twist? You’re making a habit of twisting things and you’ve been caught out twice.
Your argument is also clearly very weak when you attack me for comments about other unrelated threads and freedom-of-speech issues. Am I stopping you expressing your opinion? Btw, I have had a house in the south of England for over 20 years and spend part of the year there. There’s no sewage on the beaches that I visit. There have been some sewage leaks, like at Worthing last summer, but that was due to pump failure.
People will also note that you bypassed saying what things you benefited from in that list, and yes Mike there are many. What difference does it make that an academic wrote it? It’s just a list – your silence on that issue speaks volumes.
Blinkered Fred the poster who said on 28/03/16 ‘No more to say on Brexit except I’ll gladly accept the will of the British people on June 23rd’ but straight back he comes on same topic less than 2 days later and ad infinitum! You just can’t help yourself can you, now twist that around if you wish, you’ve been caught out yourself? lol
The man who says ‘no’ but means ‘yes’ PMSL
The man who for his own vested business interests as wells family will vote to remain! I’ve news for you, I’m not trying to persuade you otherwise and your chatter and occasional diatribe will not cause me to change course!
Your arguments are flawed and weak when you can’t adhere to what you say!
You were disproved previously and so you are again only you are unable to see that. Funny though! lol
I agree Fred the EU “has alot of problems”,which can easily be solved by Brexit.This will enable the British people to regain their sovereignty,and be able to hold their own elected representatives to account.
Something no doubt you, and thousands of British fishermen and steelworkers benefitted from before Harold Wilson deceived you and the British people,and the likes of Blair,Brown,Clegg,Cameron etc continue to do.Anyone who cares for our future generations will Vote Leave.
Jonathan, the very fact that the UK has an option of staying in the EU or not, means they already have sovereignty. Btw I was not born when Harold Wilson became prime minister, so I don’t feel personally deceived.
Anyone who cares for “future generations” must vote for a system where countries all communicate with each other. After two world wars you should know that. Hiding away in isolation will not shield the UK from global issues. When you say things are “easily solved” by Brexit, nothing could be further from the truth; it will only make more obstacles for the UK to overcome. Brexit is not the panacea you think it is – it won’t stop illegal immigration, and it won’t stop terrorism, and those are the two things that most people are worried about in recent polls. People don’t want uncertainty.
The whole thing has degenerated into a complete shambles. Both sides of this campaign lack credibility and I don’t believe a word either of them say. The problem is, people want cast iron guarantees and neither side can offer them. It’s all guess work and nobody knows the exact scenario for in/out but they should at least admit it. There are too many fake stats floating around too.
One thing’s for sure, it’s looking very tight and could still go either way. Does anyone know what happens if it is very close i.e. just a few hundred votes either way? A re-run perhaps?
A wonderful hilarious article that starts out saying ‘who can you believe’ – everything should be taken with a pinch of salt and then quotes only financial spivs and big business all for Remain and one sad plonker called Boris – Rob Horgan, you need to study Goebbels before trying to emulate him – very poor effort.
Fred – Britain never has been isolated, your thinking of the USA. The rest of your arguments are fatally flawed but good try.
Brexit will not solve the lousy politicians and ineffective controls – so let’s get rid of the garbage after a Brexit.
Stuart, will Brexit solve illegal immigration and will it stop terrorism? Answer has to be no. Those are the two issues people are most concerned about. Yes, politicians are lousy, and you will have a lot of lousy UK ones, with or without Brexit. As for my arguments being fatally flawed, they are just as valid as yours, and you cannot prove or disprove any of my arguments, just as I cannot yours.
The “one sad plonker called Boris is the noble leader of the “Leave Campaign”. Respect…..
@Stuart talking of hilarious articles have a look at this:
I love the Private Eye front page which headlines Project Fear ‘Brexit goes Nuclear’ and shows a photo of Camoron and Osforlorne with speech bubbles!
Camoron says ‘there could be a World War’
Osforlorne says ‘it could be worse than that, house prices might fall’
Encapsulates how daft Project fear are!
As for Fred? lol
Mike, all you have as an argument is my earlier quote about not wanting to comment further, which you have to keep bringing up ad infinitum because you haven’t got anything else to say, and of course you need to distract readers away from your earlier errors. Btw, that comment doesn’t make any later arguments invalid or weak. People are also allowed to go back on earlier decisions they make in life, and on blogs, too.
Fact is Mike, you simply won’t tell us what benefits from that earlier list that you have taken advantage of, and of course, there are lots, but you just cannot bring yourself to say anything positive about the EU because it would undermine your “Brexit solves everything” argument.
As for vested interests, every person who votes on such an issue does so with their own family interests first, you included Mike. When people vote in UK general elections they think about how the issues affect them and their family primarily, and the same is true in this referendum. I run a business in Europe and I do not want the uncertainty that Brexit brings. I also want my children to have future access and opportunities in Europe, on the same level playing field as other European members. That’s not a vested interest, that’s just common sense.
Alas, the day you disprove me on anything will be a long time coming Mike. No one has 100% answers to all the issues in this debate, but there are some basic facts that can easily be checked, and you twisted two of them and got found out. I know you don’t like that, but there it is. Suck it up lol.
Fred what a tiresome individual you are, having proved you wrong before you cannot accept it, and why did you say you wouldn’t talk of Brexit as proven but then you ‘peddled’ on with it, but widened your goalposts again squirming out with ‘people are allowed to go back on etc ‘and on earlier blogs’ the point is it made you look rather stupid. You just can’t help yourself can you? The man who says one thing but means another lol
Have you taken on the role of Topic Monitor for the OP lol, and btw why should anyone feel they have to answer your direct questions as you have of several of us, you’re just not important? Now, if the Olive Press asked the questions directly that would be a valid request from a recognised body!
There are articles I could mention re the terrorists exploiting migrant routes (Schengen) but you would denounce those, you feel you have to win your flawed arguments.
I note your snide comment to finish as rude for a man under pressure! lol
Mike, why not stop the personal attacks and just concentrate on the issues raised? Your distraction techniques only show this forum that you can’t engage in a simple debate on this topic. This is a blog, for debate. Why are you are scared to answer such a simple question? You can’t tell us that the EU has benefited you (and of course it has in many ways) because that is at odds with your Brexit argument. I have no issue at all with you supporting Brexit, but I will always step in (and indeed back in) when you peddle mistruths.
Yes, terrorists have migrated across Europe, but they have not simply passed across into the UK, as it is not in the Schengen zone. The borders are up, the checks are in place. You ask me a question, you get an answer, unlike yourself. Ironically, you are just like the politicians you moan about. Now that is tiresome.
Personal attacks? lol Says the poster makes them much of the time to those who disagree with him!
Nothing is ‘simple’ with you and your perverse questioning of other posters as if you were in control of the topics, you’re not btw!
For the benefit of those who understand Schengen open borders migrant routes and their easy access for terrorists.
Telegraph 26/01/16 ‘Isil exploiting migrant routes to smuggle jihadists back to Britain using fake documents’ according to British Intelligence officials.
Telegraph 19/11/15 ‘Abaoud & others involved in the Paris attacks – exploited the chaos of Europe’s migrant crisis to come & go as they pleased by posing as refugees’
On 10/05/16 Theresa May ‘ordered a shake-up of Britain’s coastal defences’ following a report of ‘an Isil-linked terror cell exploited migrant routes in to EUROPE to plot terror attacks on the UK, police fear’
Fred I,m glad you did,nt have to endure Harold Wilson ,but you have had to suffer his lying predecessors, in the 70,s we had the Cod War with Iceland sending out gun boats to protect their fish stock from being plundered,and they were right to do so.We now have clean beaches for our redundant fishermen to enjoy, wow, we have sadly surrendered our fishing grounds to the EU to plunder,whilst Iceland and Norway thrive.At the end of the day I detest being lied to,and you only have to look at the motley crew supporting the remain campaign, failures like Mandelson,Kinnock and Bilderburgers like Hague, Major, Heseltine ,Blair,Brown and Blunkett.
Jonathan, I try to never argue about personalities in politics, that is the quick route to achieving nothing in a debate and just misses all the big issues. All politicians lie of course and in the case of Brexit you’ll be led and controlled 100% by a bunch of Etonians who have nothing in common with the average working person. Btw, can you tell me if you’ve benefited from anything the EU has done? Difficult to get people to give a simple answer to that one lol.
Well I am happy to slag off some politicos involved in this lying. self-serving Brexit exercise. Start with the chief culprit, Farage, whose big stupid ego is greedily feeding on the attention. Followed by the buffoon Boris, who has his eye on the Prime Minister role of Britain as his reward. Then, goggle-eye Gove, not content with screwing up the education department, now keen to see the whole country go down the Swanee . Lovely Ian Duncan Smith, next. The man who finds great joy in squeezing the disabled and any poor folk who he can make poorer (not forgetting your defunct winter fuel payment).
Then there’s glamorous George Galloway, the man you all love to hate, Priti (pull up the drawbridge) Patel. Chris Grayling, dubbed by The New Statesman, “the most incompetent member of government”. It is absolutely clear there is not a single member of the team who is worth a light.
As Joni Mitchell almost said, “you won’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone”. Then it will be too late.
Jonathan, he doesn’t own nor run the Olive Press you don’t have to answer his questioning, which he’s also asked several others. If you or anyone wants to vote OUT you don’t have to answer nor have to justify your decision to him as he is quite unimportant! He likes to have the last word! lol
What Mike means is that he can’t answer a simple question, as its too embarrassing for him to give any credit whatsoever to the EU, so instead he needs support from other people not to answer questions either lol.
What you have stated Fred is a ‘lie’ which is a false statement presented as if it were true, I am not answerable to you who makes it a mission to ‘demand’ answers from anyone who doesn’t agree with you as on this topic.
When you made your statement on 28/03/16 it was also false but was clearly a lie.
I make my own decisions which you cannot comprehend rationally, and as such you prefer to provoke people including me into playing your games. We do not owe you answers, do you understand? Now I know you ‘always’ like to have the last word on so may of the topics which is rather silly of you!
If you can make your own decisions then why do tell others what to do as well? And, if you make your own decisions why do you keep posting Daily Telegraph headlines as if they are “proof” of anything? Clearly they make your decisions for you. Don’t be a sheep.
Absolutely no problem Mike, answering Fred, the OP and this forum are excellent.Watched Question Time from Aberdeen and an audience member stated there used to be over 500 boats in the Scottish fishing fleet ,now about 120.No Remain supporter can ever explain the benefits of the EU to the redundant fishermen.Clean beaches and cheap mobile roaming charges can never replace communities deserted and betrayed by the EU.Vote Leave , over to you Fred,BTW Kate Hoey an ex pupil of Eton?
Jonathan, The UK government at the time (Thatcher, wasn’t it?) sold out the fisherman too you will find. The CFP is without a doubt one of the most maligned pieces of EU legislation, but it is also one of the most complex issues to legislate on. It’s true that ports around the UK have a smaller number of the vessels than they originally had, and I can see the evidence of that at my local port in the UK, but blaming the EU here doesn’t make complete sense. There are many technological changes that have have led to a reduction in the number of fishing vessels, both in and out the EU. Another reason for the lower number of ships is the various vessel decommissioning schemes, which the EU brought in and which actually helped many fisherman and coastal communities through a difficult transition, as quotas lessened. Lastly, one of the most significant issues for small ports is how quota is allocated between different fishing fleets and this is a national decision, not an EU one. The CFP is far from perfect, and requires further reform, but it is at least a system where people are together around the table communicating about the issues. Finally, don’t forget the fish. Quotas are gradually leading to stock recovery.
Clean(er) beaches and roaming charges are important, but agreed, they are not the most important things. A quick look at the list above shows how EU law affects all of us, from food labeling, to drug controls, to food and consumer protection, and beyond.
And so Kate Hoey is an Etonian? Well, you’ve got to vote for someone. I always vote Green btw.
Mike, I see you have posted some more headlines from your bulging Daily Telegraph feed. We’ve already agreed that terrorists used migration routes, but to continually mention Schengen as a justification for Brexit is fundamentally flawed, because leaving the EU does not mean that we change our Schengen status. You can’t give up what you don’t already have.
The headlines you posted concern fake passports being used to (potentially) gain access to the UK by terrorists pretending to be refugees, and travelling across the European mainland. If a passport is fake, and a “fake refugee” (or indeed even a fake tourist for that matter) with hostile intentions gets in to the UK, then the UK’s system for detecting fake identities is clearly at fault. Schengen does not, itself, permit a potentially hostile person to get through UK passport controls, a fake passport, and a lack of security intelligence and ID checking, does. Your “proper border controls again” argument doesn’t solve this problem.
However, where Schengen has fallen down badly is at the “outer border” of the EU, where those fake passports were used to access the EU mainland. The UK can only really influence this with greater intelligence sharing. Now before you hit reply and type “Fred says Schengen is bad”, I am not saying it doesn’t have problems or limitations. What I am saying is that by leaving the EU, the UK will not magically stop terrorists from trying to enter. There will always be attempts. So why make Schengen a reason to support Brexit as you do? Or do you? We can’t ask you a question of course, since you get all upset lol.
On the broader subject of Schengen, it is naive in the extreme to assume that reimposing border controls will stop all movement of migrants and asylum-seekers (genuine and otherwise) between EU member states. The Dublin rules originated in the Council of Europe discussions back in the 1980s, and were not even even connected to the Schengen project. Border controls did not stop migrants back then either, indeed Germany last received huge numbers of asylum seekers during the Bosnian war of 1992, and again when the border controls were fully in place, which was years before countries like Hungary joined the EU, and Austria was not yet a member then either. The vast majority of asylum seekers who reach the EU have often crossed many Asian or African borders already, and those arriving in Greece plan to cross other European borders after they arrive anyway, unless (improbably) Greece is their intended destination. They have fled war, poverty or persecution (sometimes all three), paid smugglers a small fortune, often been ill-treated on the way to the EU, and endured an appalling and dangerous sea-crossing. Compared to all that, why would the reinstatement of Schengen border controls across all member states deter anyone who would otherwise come? Answer, it won’t, obviously, and we have seen how people have altered their routes.
Another essay, yawn! From must have last word Fred the man who says one thing but means another lol You do not like it when posters either disagree with your views or worse, stand up to you, but too bad!
The Times (not Telegraph) lol on 27/04/16 said ‘Nobody can prove or disprove that the EU has benefitted Britain’
Spectator (not Telegraph) 27/02/16 says ‘If the migrant crisis goes on like this there may be no EU for Britain to leave’
Well it’s honest debate from me, or lists of Telegraph links from Mike the sheep. Funny how you moaned about giving sources before and now you can’t give them away fast enough lol. You are not interested in debate Mike, you and your ilk are one of the reasons the UK has gone down the pan and why I tried to make a life elsewhere in Europe. You read all the spin, you believe it, you spit hate, and you regurgitate and twist it to suit your agenda. “It’s all the immigrants fault” is exactly your level.
Bye Mike.
Honest debate? lol You mean diatribe from Fred the goat who lied about not debating Brexit again and previous post about me! What’s coming out of your posts shows clearly how under pressure you are, as you become more vitriolic!
BBC news 03/02/14 Corruption across EU!
‘Breathtaking’ EU commission says & costs the EU economy at least 120 bn euros annually!
You know you cannot bear to say ‘Bye Mike’ you’ll be back lol
So you think its my fault you’ve left the UK, but you still keep a base in the South of England? Why? But Hilarious nonetheless! BTW in case you forgot we own a property in Spain still not too far from Marbella for holidays had it for 16 years now!
So far you’ve told me to ‘suck it up’, ‘you sheep’, ‘you spit hate’ ‘regurgitate and twist it’, ‘exactly your level’ and more, and you’ve clearly told porkies!
No what it is, someone is standing up to you berating others all the time, they call you constantly moaning, constantly negative, fed up with Fred, and you eventually harass them off this excellent editorial!
I fully appreciate this is all new to you but try to calm down and don’t believe everything you read in your links lol
Fred,
your argument that ‘everyone’ only votes for their own interests sums up exactly what has been wrong with the UK for far too long and it has resulted in what the UK has become today – not a very nice place.
When I look at Germany, the Netherlands, two countries I know well and France where I live now, these three countries are in so many ways a mirror of what has been lost, deliberately destroyed and sold down the river by so many Brits who would best be described as traitors. A land where the old and the young have been largely deserted by ‘society’.
The Brits were the first in Europe to be deliberately infected with consumerism, so many hold ‘American’ views that it would be best if they bought one way tickets. Many of them will vote Brexit for completely the wrong reasons.
The ‘Left’ in Britain have been cowardly mouth merchants for far too long. Day after day they warn about what will happen with a Brexit, never do they talk about doing whatever is nec. to reclaim our country. The Nasty party can only go on wrecking the country IF the people let them – a people get the government they deserve.
All over mainland Europe people have had enough and how does the cowardly Left in the UK respond by attempting to tar them all as racists and fascists – all they expose is their own cowardice, just like 68.
Jonathon – commercial fishermen are all greedy and always have been. The British ones are no exception. I can remember seeing news of huge storehouses of prime fish to be used as fishmeal, the insanity – 5K of superior fishmeal to produce 1K of inferior beef. All the CFP does is show how corrupt the EU is. At least 20 years ago there should have been a moratorium on all fishing in EU waters. Just take a look at frozen fish and where it comes from, now we are looting other peoples fish from Africa and the Pacific.
This vote should be what is best for Britain and we should vote Brexit not just for our country but in the long run what is best for Europe as a whole – sadly Fred’s viewpoint will be the norm in deciding how so many will vote, in his defence he is being open about it, unlike Aunt Sally.
Stuart, I think it’s a basic fact of life that when people vote in elections they think of how their vote, and who and what they are voting for, will affect their family and themselves primarily, and then the common good is a close second. People have to make a living, they have to survive financially, and raise and support a family, and ensure that will continue into the future and bring further opportunities. I do not think that is failure, I think it is quite normal. A vote is a personal thing, but we all try to vote for the common good too i.e. for an ethical party or a party/candidate who has the same values as us. If a person believes it is “best for Britain” to be in the EU, we should respect that, just as we should respect the opposite too of course. I’ll be glad when it’s over lol.
Barclays put forward a worst case scenario that might benefit the OUT group by saying ‘the departure of one of the EU’s most powerful economies would hit its finances and boost populist anti-EU movements in other countries which could lead to the collapse of the EU project. The UK would then be seen as a safe haven from the risks, attracting investors and boosting the pound etc’
Maybe things could work out nicely, and if it did boost the pound then Brits might want to buy cheaper EU properties!
Fred,
you have deliberately not responded to the fact that Brits simply have no respect or love for their country – you have repeated the ‘English/British’ argument. Your argument, as honest as it is is exactly the reason that the UK is not a very nice place to live today.
Ever since we left the UK in the summer of 2001, we have never had to remember to lock the door, either in Galicia or in Guadix or here in France and we live right next to what would be a prime burglar spot in the UK, a Route National.
Even before we left Brighton & Hove, if you went out at night you had to watch out for the violent drunks, the smackheads and going for a walk along the seafront at night was’nt advisable without carrying some ‘protection’. A friend from Dundee said it used to be a lovely little city but nowadays at night it is a no-go area.
I look at the local paper online – the Evening Argus, just take a look today – two men knifed in the town centre, another one yesterday. Rapes, murders – don’t live in the country if you don’t want to be robbed, that’s if you can afford to buy a home in the Ponzi scheme that the UK has become. Just imagine how many killings there would be if there were the amount of guns there are in Spain and France – it would be just like living in America, because that is what the UK has become – another American State with all the insanity of that country. The only killings with guns I have seen in France has been because of stupid hunters. Gun crime in Spain – virtually all foreigners involved in drug dealing.
No one in the UK can blame the EU for this level of crime, it’s all down to screw everyone else, what’s in it for me.
For the intelligent people, they know that society should be their first priority, since it is society that enables them to live a decent life. It seems that the overwhelming majority of Europeans understand this completely but far too many Brits sadly have your mentality – a people get the society and government that they deserve – you reap what you sow, it really is as simple as that.
Stuart, I did not deliberately respond to the question; I did not know you were asking me a specific question. Perhaps just ask me next time? The concept of voting for the common good or the individual is of course the “voter’s paradox”. Voting is flawed in a sense, because one almost subconsciously votes for the system that think benefits them. The truth is that an individual sacrifice for the common good never produces a personal reward equal to the cost of the sacrifice. In general elections the voter is basically being bought into a series of myths that make them think that their single vote really does count. In this referendum we have a binary choice, so in a way it is at least a bit easier to comprehend just what is that we are voting for (the union).
I think it is sad you have your mentality, and you think it’s sad I have mine. But which mentality is correct? You seem to be saying that “my mentality” is incorrect when I vote and think of my family and their future opportunities. I’m afraid I cannot ever agree with that, furthermore I don’t think it is British at all to shrink back and isolate ourselves when our world is so globalized. You do reap what you sow, and I have sowed in both the UK and in Europe and I want to retain that and nurture it. That does not at all mean that I do not respect or love the UK, which is what you seem to be implying. That is just total nonsense. Brexit is not some magic panacea that fixes the UK. The NHS was mentioned above. Yes, £300 million a year goes on EU member treatments, but a massive £1.8 billion goes on non-EU patients, so there’s the NHS finance problem in a nutshell – the UK needs to stop blaming the EU for things that are its own doing.
Btw, I don’t think all Britons are disrespectful of their country, but the youth certainly have a problem. Too much bad parenting and poor education, no respect for elders, and so on. Once one generation loses their way, it’s a slippery slope downwards. We have a culture that is based upon owning more and more things and there’s sadly no alternative. Perhaps that is why religions like Islam do not like our way of life and will do anything to stop themselves emulating it?
Fred and Mike followed Stenfango over to scare mongering Opinion column.Fred as a Green bring Jenny Jones policies with you.
Clear as mud jonagon.
Jonathan, I can answer you when I understand what it is that you are trying to say lol.
I don’t understand your post either jonathan, we 3 seem to agree on something!
Hi Fred and Mike, alot of scrolling now required on this thread,I commented on the OP OPINION “Decision of a generation” thread,along with Stefango,have a read and I look forward to your comments.
Fred,
we have the culture you mention which began in the 60s’ with the beginning of ‘Americanisation’. Your saying it is inevitable but that simply is’nt true is it. There are alternatives but they don’t suit gobalisation, which again you are saying is inevitable – no it is’nt. To introduce a medieval Islam as the alternative is just scaremongering and something that most Muslims would’nt agree with either.
There is something called, social democracy which the filthy slimebag Tony the Liar conned many who had never voted Labour into doing in 97 and then they found out he had betrayed everything he said in his election campaign.
Globalisation is’nt working, let alone being inevitable.
When the former head of MI6 talks about social convulsion in Europe if Brussels does’nt listen to European people he is’nt using Project Fear, he’s looking at the news coming in from all over Europe.
Just a few days ago I met a Belgian friend whilst in my local village. He used to work in the European Commission and his English wife commutes part of the week to Brussels, working for a major European bank in risk management. When he said that the system (EU) cannot change and that the only viable alternative was revolution and that it would’nt be long in coming, I was really surprised. This was’nt some stupid little Maoist student, this was a very conventional man with 3 kids in his early 50s. His attitude endorses completely the former MI6 chief.
Virtually all the problems in the UK are because of the cowardly passive mentality of far too many Brits – this attitude is so different from that of the mainlanders, those Brits with this passive – what can I do attitude need to take a reality check and soon.
Fred,Jenny Jones a Green Member of that other worthless institution along with the EU Parliaments of Brussels and Strasburg,however as a Green she has one good policy,she supports Brexit.
Jonathan, I have no problem with Jenny’s views. Green policies are, overall, far more important than Brexit, in any case. The Green party policy is to remain in the EU btw.
Stuart, globalisation is the internationalisation of Capitalism. In our current way of living (in the West) there does not seem any other system coming along that is going to replace capatalism. What serious alternative is there for our way of life? That was the inevitability I was referring to, and of course others have said the same e.g. Murray Rothbard, in 1973. As for Islam, I was not scaremongering, merely saying that Islam does not seem to like our way of life – the things you mentioned for example, like the youth violence, the drugs, the lack of respect etc. I was not offering it as the replacement, but it is A replacement, after all as you will know, the capitalist-like (proto-capitalist) economies and free markets first became active during the Islamic Golden Age.
As for an EU revolution coming, many EU countries, on the face of it, do seem to want to stay in the EU. Despite all the recent protests in Greece, they still want to stay in the euro, according to the latest polls anyway. There have not been many (any?) significant organised protests in the various European capitals demanding to leave the EU – please correct me. I agree that the UK is passive; Iceland lost a leader over the Panama papers, but Cameron (who was implicated) did not suffer in the same way for example.