Imogen Calderwood
THE Spanish parliament has overwhelming rejected Catalunya’s bid to hold a referendum for independence.
The northeastern region was seeking permission to hold a referendum on November 9 this year.
But after a marathon seven hour debate, 299 members of parliament voted against the proposal, 47 supported the bid, and one abstained.
Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy insisted before the vote: “As president of the government, I am and I will be everybody’s president.
“Catalunya should remain in Spain because I can’t think of Spain without Catalunya, nor of Catalunya outside Spain and outside Europe,” he added.
Rajoy repeated his argument that the Catalunyan referendum would be illegal, as under the Spanish constitution a referendum on sovereignty must be a national vote, rather than a regional one.
All the major parties, including the ruling conservative People’s Party, the main opposition group, the Socialists, and the Union for Progress and Democracy voted against the petition.
All three were determined to block the petition, and the outcome of the vote was never in doubt.
Catalan and Basque nationalist parties supported the vote, and Catalan authorities immediately announced that this was not the end.
Catalunya’s regional head of government, Artur Mas, said: “This is not a final full stop. It’s a new paragraph and from here, from this painful ‘no’, Catalunyan institutions will look for new legal frameworks, to allow for this November ballot to take place.”
If the Catalunyan authorities are successful, the sought-after bid would take place just two months after the Scottish vote on independence.
Holding people hostage to your country against their free will. This will end badly for you Spain, without a doubt. Check out what history has to say on the matter.
Spain needs to learn to be a real democracy, and soon.
Just a thought, how about the Gibraltarians wishing to stay British ! oh sorry I forgot ,thats a completely different thing.
I’ve been living in Catalonia for the past 36 years and I can fully understand them wanting to break away from the spañish yolk. Catalonians are not spanish, that to begin. They don’t think like spaniards and don’t act like spaniards. Catalonians are democracy friendly, spaniard are not and never have been. Catalonians are hardworking, spaniards are “tomorrow” and “siesta”.
George: Strongly agree with the sentiments you express. Just wonder, with you having lived there for so long, why you don’t refer to “Catalunya” and “Catalans” rather than “Catalonia” and “Catalonians” ?
Homage to Catalunya? Doesn’t sound right to me!
The tittle of the book is “Homage to Catalonia”. I think that if you are speaking in a lenguage is not good introduce unnecessary words of another lenguaje, because of this way you corrupt the first lenguage.
George
Spain is a nation that has taken 800 years to form, during the Reconquista, and has great geological and climatic variety.
Therefore it is inappropriate to generalize; The people of Galicia, Catalonia or the Basque country of Andalucia have many differences between them.
And in a particular region is not the same way of being of the people living in the city than the farmers living in farthest village. Ones can be living in a post industrial way and the others in a preindustrial way.
Anselmo,
typical arrogance from a Spaniard. The corruption is the alien Spanish of a Catalan word.
During the Reconquista the Christians destroyed all the great Semitic universities, indeed in Granada they took all the manuscripts and burned them – all 10 tons – tha action of jealous savages.
Ferdinand and Isabella – right up there with Stalin and Hitler. Rape and murder of countless Arabs and Jews, the beginning of the Holocaust in Central and South America. The wanton jealous destruction of truly beautiful mosques in Spain and the fantastic architecture of the Inca and Aztec – the Catalans don’t want to be part of all that and why should they, they did’nt take part in any of this slaughter and destruction.
Remember if you Spanish try to take Cataluyna by force, this time you won’t have the Fascist Germans and Italians to back you up with weapons ans supplies – could be the Catalans will overrun Madrid and impose the Catalan language and customs on you – now would’nt that be interesting and warraanted payback.
Stefanjo
I’m a linguist, Catalunya and Catalans are Catalonian words, as Catalonia and Catalonians are the same in english. The catalonians refer to the englis as “anglesos”, so I think it proper to translate. Same to be applied to names (Christian names most have an equivalent in different languages: George, Jordi, Jorge.
Anselmo.
I have friends in all regions of Spain, when I refer to spaniards in the context of this article, I mean the despots that deny Catalonia any right for freedom.
I continue thinking that it is unnecessarily harmful the use of foreign words when one is expressed in a particular language. That can carry misunderstandings and the corruption evolution of the lenguaje.
On the other hand I do not agree with the idyllic view on Al Andalus of Stuart.
Finally there is no question of rights of Catalonia, because it is an abstraction to which can not be attributed rights and duties
Anselmo,
My view of Al-Andalus is based on historical facts, that you refuse to acknowledge the atrocities and destruction by Catholic savages/Inquisition is par for the course, as always.
You did’nt know or pretend not to know that the Castillians (English version) invaded a sovereign country – Cataluyna.
Remember there are no Germans or Italians this time, you will be on your own and Nato might have something to say if you try your old fascist ways – cuidado mucho cuidado.
Anselmo,
I don’t quite understand what you are trying to get to. I just said that every language has it’s own words to refer to something and when it doesn’t, it uses the same words used by the original language. How do you refer to “London” in castillian? You don’t say London, do you?
As to the history expressed by Stuart, you know damned well that Castile has historically used very mean ways to colonize, being a magnificent genocidal culture and that is exactly what they want with Catalonia.
stuart
I feel that you think that I am arrogant , but ” Catalonia ” is a English word (the Spanish word is ” Catalonia” , which sounds exactly like the Catalan “Catalunya” ) . I think that is good for all of us delay the degradation of the cultural treasure that is the English language.
The University is a Western institution which didn´t exist in the Al Andalus.
The Castillians appreciated the superior knowledges of the Arab civilization , they looked for his cultural treasures and contributed to its spread through the rest of Europe ( the Toledo´s School of Translators ) .
The Catholic Kings didn´t backed the kidnapping and murder of Jews and Muslims. It´s a fact that they decreed the expulsion of those Jews which didn´t converted to the christianism and that, equally, they not opposed to the forced conversion of many muslims.
I have no news that mosques were destroyed high artistic value . Most of them were transformed into churches. In Valencia, for example, the current cathedral was originally a temple to the goddess Diana, after a church , later a mosque and then a church.
Regarding the destruction of temples and palaces Incas and Aztecs , it was a shame . But I see no way that would have been possible, for example , continue life in a city like Mexico , keeping its center at the apex of a pyramid had the heart ripped out thousands of unhappy. ( Did you see Apocalyto ? )
And indeed , for better or for worse, the conquest of America should not be attributed to it the Catalans .
Regarding your last recommendation about the dangers of a possible invasion of Catalonia, is meaningless. Because Catalonia is part of Spain for over five centuries.
As for your assertion that your vision of Al Andalus is based on historical facts. No I doubt it , but in my humble opinion I find that you are using specific facts, in some cases invented, to make up a story to fit certain preconceptions.
I correct the first paragraph of my previous comment:
The Spanish word is “Cataluña”.
Thanks
George
No one, when he speaks Spanish, uses the word “London” instead of the word “Londres”.
I agree with you about how good colonizers were the Castillians.
But I consider insane to describe the Castilians as genocidal, and your afirmation of that they want to do a genocide in Catalonia.
It is likely that I have misunderstood the last paragraph of your comment.
Anselmo.
“Cultural genocide”, this has been common for the castillians for centuries. They did it with the jews, with the moors and more recently they tried with all the other Iberian cultures. It is well known by all despots that by eliminating the language, you end up eliminating the cultural expresion of that culture and hence any resistance to accept the new imposed one. Probably, most castillians don’t even think that they’re doing it, but the fact is that they are, and, the actual spañish government is acting as that.
I do not share your assertion that the Spaniards did a cultural genocide , but I admit that it may have some basis .
Talk of Iberian cultures seems excessive to me , as much you can talk about localism , folclorismos and regional languages.
All languages ??of the Iberian peninsula comes from the vulgar latin of the year 1000 . Except Basque.
Regional languages ??fell into disuse not because of persecution of the Castilians,but progress. With the process of improving communications and industrialization, immigration and the local languages ??became useless and samples of backwardness and poverty.
.
The Catalan was an exception , since the Catalan bourgeoisie cared that language as hallmark. Unlike , for example , the bourgeoisie Valencia .
The fact was that none of the regional languages ??was vehicle of culture. And that is a situation that will worsen in the future, because if the decline of regional languages ??was due to the passage of local economies to regional economies , today’s global economy, I´m afraid, that may involve his death.
Your afirmationabout a cultural genocide carried by the actual goverment, in my opinion, is unfounded.
I suggest you read “1984” of George Orwell, where you find a good description of how The Big Brother government destroys vocabulary because if you cannot express something or you cannot express the contrary, or even sinonymous equivalents, then the mental perception of the abstract meaning doensn’t exist either. Dictators through history have known that and applied it to the conquested. How would you explain the obsesion of the spanish PP, especially minister WERT, in trying to subdue Catalonian as much as posible intending to bring it to a minimun use. All spanish government for the past 300 years have attacked the catalonian language on this basis “Eliminate their language to eliminate their culture and as so eliminate their resistance”.
According to my information, Wert only want that some subjects will be taught in Spanish.
Is surprising to find nine years old children in Catalonia who do not understand a word of Spanish.
I consider 1984 a great book. Newspeak was to reduce the vocabulary of a language in order to reduce the capacity for abstraction of individuals.
You remember that the protagonist´s job was alter the historical records for rewrite history to suit the political needs of the regime.
In my opinion your declarations are proof that through your knowledge of a distorted history by will of nationalists,You are a victim of their disinformation campaigns.
There are no disinformation campaigns from the spañish side? Come on mate, I insist that the independentist movement is something that comes directly from the people, not the politicians and that is what spaniards don’t understands or prefer to think it’s a polytical matter so as to have something to hold on to, instead of accepting that a whole nation is fed up with them. I have lived the spanish egocentrism myself and I understand catalonians perfectly wanting to be rid of the pests.
It is a fact that, now, there is an independentist sentiment in much people and that this sentiment is been increased and manipulated by certain individuals. But, I think, it is not viable for real application.
In my opinion, the nationalism is an ideology of the XIX century, whose time have passed.
Anselmo,
it’s hard to know if you are just indocrinated or lying.
The Aztec capital was an incredible feat of civil engineering, turning a mosquito infested swamp into a healthy, beautiful place to live.
When Cortez and his band of Catholic killers eventually reached that city they were stunned by what they saw. When they had murdered enough of the Aztec to take control and turn the people into slaves they deliberately set about destroying this fabulous city, purer jealousy.
Mexico city created by you Spanish is a huge ugly sprawling hellhole, it’s smog on a par with Beijing.
All those incredible Aztec and Inca cities were destroyed by you Spanish and look at what you have created (not sure that’s the right word to use)- every city you have built is ugly.Come on Granada over the hills and all you can see is completely disorganised construction and that built on a fertile flood plain.
The universities are a ‘western/christian’ institution did’nt exist in Al-Andaluz – that is a complete lie. The Arab universities existed some 6 centuries before those poor copies of Christian Europe.
Why are so many of you Spanish in stupid denial of the truth, it is you who is trying with out success to invent an idyllic Catholic past, I always get my Dutch and German friends to read posts like yours – they laugh themselves silly.
Lying is to say false things , knowing them to are false for the purpose of misleading.
You can be sure I’m not lying. If I say a false thing is because I´m misinformed.
I think all people are indoctrinated to some extent. It is very difficult not to share any of the prejudices of the society in which an individual lives . Different events are evaluated differently depending on the time and geographical location .
Therefore the only way to approach the truth is by evaluating objective evidence.
I have not heard of the destruction of any city Inca or Aztec , another thing is certain temples or palaces as incompatible with the new order established by the conquerors,
The victory of the conquerors could only succeed with the support of the peoples subjugated by the Aztecs .
Cortes himself informed by letter to his Emperor of these events (Letters and relationships)
Blaming to Cortes of the overpopulation or pollution of the modern Mexico City, seems excessive .
The word ” University ” is of Latin origin, not Arab. We are talking about a typically Western institution that could not exist in the Al Andalus. Please tell me examples of Al Andalus´ universities, destroyed by the Castilians.
Just this morning, I was watching a documentary about the expulsión of the Moors from Spain. The documentary also made emphasis on the spanish obsesion to forbid the moorish language, traditions, religión and culture. This documentary was based in the 15th to 17th centuries. What difference can you see with the actual spañish obsesions against Catalonia and the catalonian language, traditions, etc? Spain hasn’t changed in the past 400 or more years, but now with the surge of the Vasques also wanting Independence, it will be facing more tan the Catalonian front, that is if new ones don’t appear, like The Canary Islands, The Balearic or even Valencia.
Please tell me examples of persecution of the Catalan language, etc..
I think your fears about secession from different Spanish regions are unfounded.
It is Little Heard of, or better said, silenced by the spanish authorities, that a civil organization in the Canary Islands have presented a demand to be included in tha list of “Countries to be de-colonized of the UN”. Here you have another regions that are fed up with the spanish administration.
As for examples of persecution of the catalonian language, my parents had to leave catalonia in 1969 for being catalonian under the Franco regime, of which I am glad because it gave a different nationality tan the spanish. My father was persecuted for speaking catalonian at work and once in exhile, found it imposible to relate with spanish emigrant because he came from Barcelona. All this ended up being for the best, it made us integrate better into our new nationality.
Anselmo.
Being from Aragon, as I imagine you are, I can’t understand your simpathy towards the Castillians, who have kept your home country depressed even more than they have with Catalonia.
Personally, I see a little forced to speak about the Canary Islands as a colony. I suppose that the people of the Canary Islands have the same rights and obligations as citizens of the peninsula, and the history of the Canary Islands and the Peninsula has gone through processes Similar conquest and repopulation.
But I think if someone had fought for their right to speak in Catalan defying the limitations we had, I probably would have had problems.
I sorry about the problems of your father motivated by to speak Catalan. To speak catalan was tolerated,only in Catalonia, although its official use or in the mass media use was not allowed, and if a person defended their right to speak in Catalan could have serious problems.
Equally if someone critized the regime, he could be jailed , or beaten.
In Catalonia and in Barcelona the population was bilingual.
“http://www.diarioya.es/content/el-falso-bulo-de-la-prohibición-del-catalán-durante-el-franquismo”
the languages ??Catalan, Galician, Valencian, Basque, etc.. They were only “tolerated.”
And there were some individuals who considered these lenguages sign of cultural backwardness, or evidence of seditious attitude.
I´m not from Aragon, but I have affinity and family ties with Aragonese people.
But I wonder why You think that Aragon has been oppressed by Castilla.
Anselmo,
you did’nt just colonise the Canary islands you exterminated virtually all the original inhabitants – the Guanche. Their cheiftan refused to become a slave so jumped from a high cliff when all was lost.
An interesting point is that the Guanche were far stronger and more athletic than the Spanish but as in all the conquests by Europeans, they did’nt have the weapons, otherwise it would have been a different story.
So now you know the truth all you Spanish will leave the Canaries and return home to Spain – right?
Please ignore any of Stuart Crawford’s attacks. He’s just a bitter ex-pat who now lives in France – hence his attitude!
Are you proposing that all the Canarian population will migrate to Spain?.
You said all the canarias inhabitants are descendants of Spanish colonists
Not all Canarians are descendants fo the spanish. I’ve known quite a few that still maintain the physical appearance of the guanche and consider thamselves as such.
As for catalonian being tolerated, I think you haven’t lived through what it meant being catalonian, and in some cases still means. When a catalonian travels around Spain, he or she is obliged to speak castillian with his/her fellow travellers, family, wife, children, if he doen’t want to hear comments from nearby people. The only exception is if you tell them you’re not catalonian, that you are andorran, then they accept that you speak catalonian. Strange isn’t it? You can speak with your partner in andorran, but not in catalonian when you travel around Spain.
Equally to the andorrans, the people from Valencia and Mallorca have no problem. I think that people of the rest of Spain thinks that people from Valencia are nice people.
Probably, the Catalanshave , unfairly, the reputation of being unpleasant.
Anselmo: Think you will find that Catalans are regarded as serious and hard-working, Which doesn’t equate to “unpleasant”. Unless impatience with frivolity and laziness is seen as “unpleasant”
Anselmo, your arguments are flailing, Spain simply doesn’t like Catalonia, but needs it to maintain its economy.
Catalonians all speak spanish just as well as any castillian and are prepared to revert to it when adressed in castillian. Castillians can’t bear to hear anybody speaking in catalonian, even when the conversation is not with them. Catalonia has gone through a lot of hell from the spaniards, now its time to say “that’s enough”. I think there is no way back anymore, the spanish government has brought things to this point, but the spanish people helped them a lot.
Jus leave the catalonians alone and go your way, it’s all they ask for.
Anselmo,
you gave a graphic example of the Spanish mentality when you said – another thing certain temples or palaces were ‘incompatible’ with the new order established by the conquerers – so you destroyed everything.
I am no apologist for the nasty English Empire, which when capturing Indians desperately trying to free their country from the invaders, were tied to posts in front of cannons loaded with grapeshot and literally blown to pieces – they don’t teach that in any school in the UK – I wonder why?
However what the eventual conquerers did’nt do was destroy the cultural heritage of India – they did’nt destroy the Taj Mahal/ the Red fort or the beautiful palaces of Rajistan or the sexually explicit Hindu carvings.
The Dutch also did’nt destroy the ancient wonders of Indonesia, same goes for the French in Indo-China.
The only indigenous president in the whole of Central and South America, all the rest being descended form the mass murdering Spanish invaders, Evo Morales tells how in the time of his grandparents (not ancient history) any indigenous person found trying to read or write had their eyes gouged out and their hands chopped off. All the wealth of Central and South America is still controlled by the Spanish – nothing changes.
Derek – go away you silly little man, instead of being abusive try learning some history.
Its not really Anselmo’s fault that he thinks the way he does, although in this day and age, historic facts are at your fingertips, and anyone with a broad mind would, if he or she wished, come to terms with the reality of the history of the Iberian Peninsula, let alone Spain’s which has only existed as one nation for a few centuries. There are many ancient maps on line which could be consulted as well, which give you, at a glance, the many different kingdoms and cultures. It is difficult to unlearn what you have had hammered in since you were small. Portugal itself was part of Spain and became independent from it. There are many people in the Iberian Peninsula who do not feel Spanish because they were not originally part of Castille, had different languages and customs, and still resent their forceful inclusion. There is nothing wrong with that. Spain has to come to terms that instead of bullying them into submission they need to respect their wishes and work with them to survive in this world. We are all in Europe.
I’ve come to the thought that Anselmo’s job is part of the PP party’s campaign to try to dismantle the catalonian surge. There are thousands of commentarist in all fórums trying to criminalize Catalonia for wanting to be freed from the spanish yolk. The PP has recently campained that all their members take active part in blocking any opinión in the presss they control and is for independentism. They have created dozens of online news pages that link to the main fascist press like the ABC or RAZON, with this they are trying to bring back the old regimes idea thet the more you bomb people with ideology, the more it becomes true, Franco knew well ho to do it, and his succesors are back at it. Catalonia has no way back now, any step back into Spain would mean disastrous result for it’s people, it would mean a XXI century sort of slavery.
Stefanjo
I share your opinion about the qualities That Are Attributed to the Catalans,in the concerning about the catalans of Barcelona , but sorry to say That I detect that there are people that feels that they are a little rude and unfriendly.
I do not think so but on occasion I have dealt With Some Catalan, I confess that I had to force myself to be patient.
It would probably be interesting to a government agency realizase surveys on this issue.
George
The states´ borders are not established by sympathy or antipathy issues.
Stuart
I agree with You on the importance of learning history, precisely one of the things that History teaches us is that the mentality of people changes over time, and exactly the example that you show is an example of the mentality of people were not the same in 1500 that in 1800.
But I still think it would not have been possible to conserve a great Aztec pyramid in the center of a Christian city.
With regard to the oppression suffered by grandparents Evo Morales, I think that must have been at a time when Peru was no longer part of the Spanish empire.
It aint´
Thank you very much for being so understanding.
Indeed, Spain is a state of more than five centuries old.
A state can not be dismantled by some elements of the population they wish.
George
George
I am not an agent of PP, I’m just trying to provide some information that I think may be useful. And I also try to learn from their views.
Anselmo,
you just don’t get it do you? You Spanish imposed the obscenity of Catholicism on the Aztec people, it was’nt a Christian city – you imposed it by force of arms.
Evo Morales is president of Bolivia not Peru and the conquistadores did’nt leave South America, nor change their mentality.
Take America, thousands and thousands of Christian fanatics from England/Germany and the Netherlands invaded that once beautiful unspoiled land and set about exterminating the indigenous people – over 17 million.
These Europeans did’nt stop being hypocritical religious fanatics, take a look today, nothing has changed there or in South America.
I Do not admit anyone to express in an insulting way about any religion.
It is clear that Christianity was imposed on Sudamérica by force of arms. That was the ideological reason for his conquest. And the plan was to do the same with Japan, China and India.
But I do not want to belittle the efforts of the missionaries.
I was wrong about Evo Morales, is true is president of Bolivia … Thanks.
I agree with You that, probably,the Discovery it had been a disgrace to all the natives of America.
You are really insulting Stuart. Saying ‘Obscene’. All of Spain is Catholic by nature. Then you say ‘YOU Spanish’. Always just insults while you put your points across isn’t it. Another bully, or bullied more like.
You’re just a wart on this website. Please stay in France!
Derek,
you need treatment – you only ever make insults, this thread is a graphic example of your dysfunctionality. You have contributed nothing in argumemts for or against. You are just acting out your problems in the public domain, very distasteful, try getting some help, although you are probab;ly long past that point.
Derek
Thank you very much for your support. I think that no religion should be insulted. Not even analyzed. They are matters of faith that do not follow any logic, and therefore should not be subjected to criticism.
Stuart
You dont have a clue what you are talking about!!!
Catunya pays less taxes than madrid, all this independence bullshit is just a smoke curtain to hide how bad their government is doing
Many of my catalan friends are fed up with it and would be happier if their government starts carrying more about people s problems and forget this separatist nonsense
Derek, Anselmo and A320.
To start, if Catalonia pays less taxes tan anyone, then it shouldn’t be a problema for Spain to let it go. If Spain is so nervous about the independentist movement, it’s because their economy will plummet if Catalonia leaves.
As for Anselmos idea about pulling down old Aztec monument because they have no place in the city centres, well, Anselmo, have you thought before saying this. When ddo you want to start pulling down the Colyseum, The Mosque in Cordova, the Giralda, the Tower of London …….. There are thousands of acient monuments inside great citeies, your argument about the correctnes of catholisism destroying other cultures monuments is a bit out of place.
As for Catholicism itself, well I have absolutely no respect at all for a chauvinistic religión with a past of genocides, tortures, inquisitions, rapes and abuses, qll very generalized ant well into our actual century. Anyone who backs up such a religion ( be this one or another) is simply justifying all the atrocities done in the past.
Derek.
Leave Stuart alone and offer us some positive opinión on something.
Derek, keep it going, having a good laugh at all the stupid replies.
Don’t these people have anything else to do. The sun is shining and good food is available by the beach.
George
The borders of the states do not change based on tax reasons.
With the advent of christianism, Roman temples were torn down or converted to churches. The best example is the Agrip´s Mausoleum. The Colosseum was a recreational building.
It is a fact that Christianity comes from Judaism who is a patriarchal religion.
I think that nobody must speak in terms of insulting any religion, but I´m against that any religion can be be used as a pretext for hurt people.
Anselmo: Keep separate Church and State. Do not allow Church to interfere with State and do not allow State to interfere with Church. No religious “instruction” in State schools.
No State religion.
Religion to be a strictly private affair. The brain-washing to be undertaken by parents or Guardians by paying and supporting their own priests and ministers.
An ancient culture such as Catalan deserves to assert its uniqueness and independence. The upstart Castillian masters, ought to listen to the calls.
I share his claims about that religion should be absolutely separate from the state.
But I think there is not a Catalan culture, I think it’s inappropriate to speak about Spanish culture, English culture,etc. I think the word “Culture” must be applied to certain areas of the planet, more extense than nations. So you can talk about Western culture, Mediterranean culture, etc..
The Literary events, folklore and customs, etc.. are nothing but concrete ways in which the values ??of a culture, are applied to the material world in this case.