Alex Iszatt (Reporter)
JULIE Girling has urged Britons to ‘boycott’ Spain in response to mounting tensions.
The Gibraltar and South-West England Euro MP posted a message on Twitter saying: “There has been enough talking, now there must be action. I urge constituents across the UK to consider taking their summer holidays elsewhere this year.
“Spain is not on our side,” she states.
Speaking out about ‘outlandish threats’ by Spain against the Rock and its citizens, and ‘menacing proposals’, the MEP calls for UK citizens to either take a ‘staycation’ this summer – holidaying in another part of Britain – or choose another foreign destination altogether.
“Citizens of Gibraltar will not stand for the Spanish bullying and intimidation. The imposition of a 50-euro charge to cross the border, and the closure of Spanish airspace to Gibraltar flights, is clearly impeding the movement of workers to and from Gibraltar,” Ms Girling states both on Twitter and on her own website, www.juliegirling.com.
“I believe the European Commission should launch legal action against the Spanish government,” the MEP concludes.
Oh grow up …ill be going to spain this year and every year in the future ….why should we listen to her!! ..WHO is she anyway .??
Where do you suggest we go Ms Girling? Egypt? Turkey or Greece perhaps? I’m going to Spain. At least it’s safe.
Stuart, she’s one of the MEPs that represents the constituency that includes Gibraltar, so it’s 30,000 of her constituents who are being semi-blockaded.
I’ll be going to Greece or Croatia, I’ve never liked bullies and frankly that’s how Spain is acting.
Far better to go to Gibraltar, Portugal or Greece. They would appreciate you far more than the Spanish will.
If you HAVE to go to Spain, then you could at least go to Catalonia, as the Catalans support Gibraltar. A recent letter sent to the Chief Minister of Gibraltar by one of the Catalan political leaders voiced their support and said that:
“Your Freedom is our Freedom”.
Catalonia and the Basque country want to split away from Madrid. They are the most prosperous regions of Spain and they have a distinct cultural identity. They deserve to become an independent state within the EU, with their capital as Barcelona.
If you really must go somewhere hot though, you can do a lot worse than go to Gibraltar. I can honestly say that you cannot meet a nicer bunch of people and it feels very reassuring that they are British and multilingual, so there’s no fiddling with a phrase book.
Gibraltar is a little bit of Britain in the Sun.
well Rufus …ill still be going to spain ..but thanks for letting me know who she is ..like i said though ..WHO is she ..oh the spannish arent bullies infact spain is one of the nicest safest and friendliest places i know ..hope you enjoy greece or croatia …thats if you can get past the “semi” blockade that is ….
Had my four weeks in Spain during July and will be back eight weeks today for my autumn fortnight. Been to Gibraltar on several occasions and used the airport there as my access to Cádiz but as for liking it, that would be a resounding no. I holiday in Spanish Spain where I am made welcome and my level of spoken Spanish is appreciated and frequently assisted in the nicest possible way.
Saludos.
It’s becoming frightening not only are the ordinary people being harassed and hassled trying to go about their lawful transit across border, but now we hear of threats to civilian aircraft approaching the runway, which no doubt will be have to be escorted by the RAF’s Typhoon’s (who’ll be fully armed) into Gib and even crazier talk of intercepting warships entering the harbour, who will defend themselves from any threats. These are potent weapons systems that can and will cause a lot of harm if used. All of this could so easily escalate and who’s going to accept responsibility then if someone is injured or killed as a consequence of this media hype.
Does the UK government has contingency measures in place to evacuated us expats from a potential war zone once the shooting starts?
It’s all the politics of the mad house.
It’s now time to remove this as the main news item on Spanish media, something which is causing so many ordinary people to get inflamed by the continual barrage of propaganda dished out daily from Madrid and London,to the point were something serious can so easily happen. Isn’t it time to cool things down and return to normality.
@Paul
Things cannot return to normality. In fact they will get a lot worse. Spain cannot back down without losing face and Gibraltar/Britain will not back down because to do so would be a loss of sovereignty.
As I interpret things at present, the Spanish media will keep up the rhetoric until someone (on the Spanish side) decides to do something rash and open fire.
The British Government is already preparing for the worst. I cannot mention precisely how on an open BB, but measures are underway to ensure that Gibraltar has sufficient protection.
Rajoy knows that he will never be re-elected. He also knows that it’s highly likely that the corruption charges will lead to a criminal prosecution. He has nothing to lose from pushing the nationalist button to gather as much support as he can from the far right.
On top of that I’ve seen various information which indicates that several Spanish banks are on the verge of bankruptcy, over-loaded with Portuguese debt. There’s no way that Germany or France can bail them out. The Greek debt to GDP ratio is 175%, but shocking news is that the French ratio is now 174%. Although France earns far more than Greece, the fact is that their production figures are contracting.
The green shoots talked about on the television today are only a 0.3% growth. But 0.3% is as close to 0% as nothing. So this may only be a speed bump improvement caused by German production growth.
If Spain fails into a cataclysmic financial disaster, then they have nothing to lose going to war to distract everyone. The EU would be unable to stop them, because if Spain goes, then all the other Euro countries fail. It wouldn’t be a better time for Britain to leave the EU and UKIP will milk this for all it’s worth.
If Cameron does not stand up to Spain, he might as well hand his office over to Farage right now. He stands no chance of re-election. So Cameron will stand up to Spain (as Maggie would) and if the shooting starts, he will have to take decisive action to end the war quickly, before Spain attacks the UK mainland. If that is the case, expect some fireworks – extremely big fireworks – to warn Spain of our resolve to win.
@Paul
I agree, trouble is the Spanish Government seem intent on escalating this on a day by day basis, now they are accusing Gibraltar of breaking EU rules on bunkering. So first it was in response to the artificial reef, then it was smuggling, then it was a tax haven, now bunkering, what will it be tomorrow. Not helped when retired generals are calling for British warships to be forcefully stopped from entering Gibraltar and ministers in the Spanish foreign ministry calling the British government liars and people who are not to be trusted.
@Paul
Preventing our warships from entering Gibraltar waters would take the dispute to the brink of war. Rajoy will not do that just yet. It would be madness. Besides, the only way he could prevent them entering would be to attack them. An unprovoked attack would bring an immediate response in kind.
Hear hear Nigel well said ! Portugal is an amazing country and they welcome the British with open arms
Spanish people like the British too & that is reciprocated. This is just a small overblown argument that the media like to hype up. The Warship visit was scheduled months ago as normal.
Many like to holiday in Spain, but they may not be so welcome if it is perceived by the Spanish that the dispute led to the financial collapse.
Spain’s financials are diabolic at the moment. They have nearly 27% unemployed and over 60% of under 25s are out of work. Their economy is just ticking over on the support they receive from the EU, but several Spanish banks failed the ECB checks on their liquidity. They took on so much sovereign debt which is unrepayable, that it is only a matter of time before there is a run on these banks and they fail. Their failure would cause a cascade of other failures. If you remember what happened when Northern Rock failed, there were queues along high streets of people trying to get their money out. Now multiply that so that virtually every Spanish bank has the same – the banking system falls apart.
On top of this, the Catalans are finally ready to seek independence. They are supporting Gibraltar as they see that Madrid is only using the dispute as a smokescreen for the corruption & economic problems. Catalonia is one of the richest and hardest working areas of Spain. If they seek independence, then it would cut off a sizeable portion of Madrid’s revenue. Plans have been laid to send the troops in to occupy Catalonia, but the Catalans will resist. If the Spanish do start fighting over Gibraltar, you can expect Catalonia and the Basque country to rise up and seek their freedom.
Looks like the Inca’s curse is still after the Spanish.
Nigel with all due respects to your expose which, although a possibility, sounds rather extreme in my humble opinion, as I know nothing about what might be happening in the side lines or in the corridors of power. It’s all very well for us to be prepared, just in case.
However, there are, I am sure, many more ways to diffuse the situation than going into a full blown war which will benefit no one, even less Spain. Both UK and Spain are NATO partners, both are members of the European Union, and so far, thankfully, except for the queues, this has all been rhetoric and chest banging meant to distract the Spanish people from extremely serious goings on in the governing party. And the louder they can bang their chests and the more publicity they get in the Spanish media and the International media too, the more real it will sound, to the Spanish. The sense of self ridicule seems to have been relegated to second place to that of the ruling party’s survival.
I am a firm believer that sanity will prevail and that either the EU or even NATO will put things into the proper order and perspective. There is no getting away from the fact that the waters around Gibraltar are British Territorial Waters. We know it, and Spain knows it. I rather doubt that Spain will take UK to the International Courts of Justice in the Hague on this, knowing full well that it has not got a leg to stand on. Gibraltar’s leaders have urged them to if they think they have the remotest chance of winning. They haven’t picked up that particular gauntlet, just yet.
As to their threats on Gibraltar bunkering, Spain took that to the EU and it was rejected. It is legal and above board. Algeciras does it, so does El Ferrol, so how can they now go alleging that its ok for them to do it, but not so for Gib? What could happen is that Gibraltar could, if they wished, take them to court for using a valve they have in the middle of the bay running underwater to their refinery where tankers transfer crude oil from ships to their refinery when the proper and safer ports are busy there, to save them having to wait. This is done in the middle of the night, with the danger that poses of spills. The spills that they never recognizes as theirs.
Let us wait and see what happens.
Let us not overflow the cup just yet.
@Inthename
I doubt that anything will happen for months. Rajoy will try to string this out as long as he can. However, the Spanish media will tire of pumping out the rhetoric if there is no ‘development’. You can only stir the right wing for so long until they start beating their chests like hairy gorillas and take matters into their own hands.
Cameron is moving very slowly. He’s threatened legal action, but would find it difficult to disprove that the increased checks to stop smuggling are not allowed. They may not be proportionate, but the courts may say that Spain was previously too relaxed, even though it was their own citizens that were doing the smuggling.
The easiest way for Cameron to progress the issue is to interrupt Spain’s EU business in Brussels. The papers announced that this was under way. If Spain takes the issue to the UN, then we can veto any security council resolution (or rather the United States would), whilst highlighting the illegality of Spains actions because of UNCLOS.
The Joker in the pack may be either the GC or the fishermen. We know that the GC are prone to firing their weapons when they want to steal a Jet Ski. So if the fishermen try a blockade and are arrested by RGP or RN, then the GC may try to interfere. That’s the moment I expect matters to go critical. I’ve suggested (over Twitter) to Fabian that he should ask HMG to ship down the LRAD they obtained for the London Olympics. Rather than arresting the fishermen, you can give them an ‘incentive’ to leave the blockade or lose their eardrums.
You will only have a problem in Spain when the mass population believe the hype and then the tourists will stop going once a few stories are put on the UK news, it won’t take much to put off 50% of tourists and anyone else around who is over 5ft 5 inches . This should be the next threat from the UK to destabilize their tourist economy. That would harm Spain more than anything else and that would be my next threat or step if I were in the UK Government. They will hold back from this for a time but it will be part of a larger plan. Spain is risking a lot to gain very little. It is all diversionary tactics from their corrupt politicians who are in trouble.Nigel, I live in the South East of the UK but do I think we should split from the rest of the UK because we generate the vast majority of the wealth, no, what for, so we can have more politicians making up more jobs and turn us into Spain, no thanks.
On an aside Nigel. If anyone is privy to any such information as you refer to namely
“The British Government is already preparing for the worst. I cannot mention precisely how on an open BB, but measures are underway to ensure that Gibraltar has sufficient protection”
I would be breaking the official secrets act signed by anyone privy to such information on an open BB or anywhere else in fact.
Cheers
Seeing that Julie Girling is M.E.P. for Gib. AND South West England. Could she have an axe to grind for places like Cornwall, when she urges Brits to have a “staycation in Blighty? But Nigel, “Gib. is a little bit of Britain in the sun”? All very well if you fancy a Britain frozen in aspic around the fifties, but hardly representative of Britain today, is it? Even Benidorm is closer to that. It sure would be interesting if all would-be Spanish visitors followed your suggestion of holidaying in Gibraltar. You’d have to be up early to claim a spot on the beach!
@Stefano – LOL
Yes, I’d have to be like the Germans and get up early to place my towel on the right spot. However, that’s the beauty of Gib, they don’t do that sort of thing.
They are bringing in a floating hotel (Flotel) to Gibraltar harbour. It will increase the number of rooms dramatically and there are plans to develop certain areas with more accomodation. Gibraltar can increase it’s population. They haven’t developed the land reclamation on the Eastern side or reclaimed as much land as the Spanish have.
I expect the Government to urge the majority of Brits who normally go to Spain to book their holiday in Portugal or Greece next year. Too late to persuade holidaymakers not to visit Spain this year.
@Inthename
“Tell me no secrets, I’ll tell you no lies”
There’s no breach to say that some ships are visiting Gib. Everyone knows this, even the Spanish. I won’t elaborate, because it’s not wise to say anymore.
@ Nigel Smith. This is just the kind of verbal diarrhoea that will get Rajoy and Margallo rubbing their grubby little hands because it will serve only to prolong the diversionary effect that had been planned right from the outset.
Cameron is on holiday, Clegg, well, is he still around??, the TV channels have all but forgotten about it. All the huffing and puffing is just that because in a few weeks it will all go back to what it was. We all know the politicians will squirm their way out of the Bárcenas affair, Picard will stop his antagonising, Spaniards will continue working unfettered in Gibraltar and business in La Linea will resume normality.
Your warmongering ‘rule Britannia’ attitude would close the border and airspace, lose many thousands of jobs (of both nationalities) and create a decade long rift between the UK and Spain. No thanks, go point your guns at Mugabe or someone.
@amparo
You appear to be working from false data.
Cameron is back at his desk.
The BBC are currently have a reporter on the Spanish side of the border and they’ve run several reports today.
“http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23712898”
Clegg (despite his Spanish wife) should rescuse himself from any vote, but he’ll probably go along with COBRA whatever is decided. He has a better understanding of the Spanish & how they react. I also do – I was engaged to a Spanish girl for 4 years, but we broke it off.
Rajoy will not be able to excuse Bárcenas, because not only the opposition see it as a means to remove him, but the Catalans see it as a means to an end.
I do hope that the Spaniards continue to work in Gibraltar – they have to. There’s precious little work in La Linea as it is!
There is no harm in pointing out to Madrid that if they continue to make something out of nothing, then they might not just be humiliated in the end, but the very shape of Spain will change forever.
@amparo
@inthename
It’s important to play the psychology game. The one thing I learned from my ex was that the majority of Spain has:
a) an inferiority complex because they used to be a great empire and now they are only a small cog in the engine of Europe
b) they have an almost pathological fear of nuclear weapons, hence the refusal to let certain American ships dock years ago.
c) they honestly fear that Spain may break up and if the Catalans get independence, then Spain would be a much poorer country.
Rajoy may play the game as long as he feels it will be to his advantage, but it might run out of his control – as the GC did when they tried to steal the jet ski.
Rajoy obviously wants to string this out to use it as a diversion from his domestic problems. He may even be considering using it to barter a deal with the EU, or to reduce his term in prison if convicted, or to feather his nest with any deal swung behind closed doors.
Certainly the EU does not need a conflict. It would irretrievably damage relations with Britain and hand the next election to UKIP on a plate – even if they keeping making faux pas like today.
I suspect that Rajoy will string this out, until it gets out of his control.
@Nigel Ever thought about becoming a Politician, you speak more sense than all of them put together !
With all due respect Mrs. Julie Girling, it would be much more advantageous for all, even for the Gibraltarians, trying to defuse this artificial fire, caused by an anomalous situation within the European Union. A mature political person, as it should be you, must respond wisely and not with a populace-like answer. Your response has nothing rational, just is like telling a poor man “I will not give you bread unless you recognize that I have the truth!” even if you win the argument you lose.
Anyone with half a brain realizes that there is a problem that is not resolved with inflammatory rhetoric.
@Jane
Politics
“A very low profession.”
(T.E. Lawrence)
As General Allenby put it:
“Thank God I’m a soldier”
Lawrence of Arabia – my favourite film.
nigel…..your living in the past old bean….nothing is going to happen so why scare people? the politicians will get round a table and wheel and deal…..and by the way people the good old royal navy ships you see in portsmoth dockyard are mostly gutted scrapyard jobs…..i could say more but im bound by the official secrets acts and would have to kill every one i told…
@pg
You would be referring to the four Type 22s, which are off to the scrap yard in Turkey. Most of the Type 42s are still awaiting salvage, but that’s beside the point. The real problem is the lack of experienced personnel. Most have been made redundant. Sure they can be recalled on the reserve list, but not for a while.
The current strength of the Navy is a matter of great concern for all ex members of the Andrew. Any conflict would bring home to roost the decisions made by the PM in SDSR 2010. He was warned, but decided to get rid of the carriers & Sea Harriers in favour of keeping the Tornadoes. Bad choice. It reduces his options considerably should the shooting start.
I seriously doubt that they will reach an agreement that is suitable to both GOG & Spain. The reef will stay and Spain refuses to budge.
Unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
Really? The British in this comments section should be ashamed of themselves. Some guy with a grudge against his ex warmongering. Pathetic.
There are quite a few people in the UK that are refusing to buy Spanish products now, fruit, wine etc. I am not one of them but things are moving along slowly.
@Nigel Smith.
a)Cameron was yesterday reported to be holiday in the UK.
b) I was referring to Spanish TV. The BBC and British press are well known to have a negative attitude Spain. Try reading how the Daily Mail reports on Spanish issues, you get the impression we live in some third world ghetto on Mars.
c) What you call an “inferiority complex” is in fact a euphemism for the British “we know best” ideology. Spain is no more or less a cog than the UK.
d) The “fear of nuclear weapons”, is fully justified because of the attempted cover up of the effects of the accident in coastal waters 50 odd years ago.
e) When the Catalan’s are allowed to understand the consequences of independence they will soon lose their appetite for it.
f) Clegg has NO understanding of Spanish sentiment, otherwise he would be here, on the front line, using his undoubted fluency (and doubtful skill) in brokering an agreement.
@Jane….If you think this man should be a politician, I can only assume you are in the nuclear shelter business. Inflammatory rhetoric gets no-one no-where as history has proven time and time again. And the double negative is deliberate.
Catalonia may indeed be a very pleasant part of Spain for a holiday but the Catalans themselves are absolute ‘shysters’ and will rob you blind at every turn.
Nigel Smith: “…. The one thing I learned from my ex was that the majority of Spain has: a) an inferiority complex because they used to be a great empire and now they are only a small cog in the engine of Europe…”
Whereas, no one could ever say the same about Britain?
@ Alun Whittaker
Very fashionable to knock the UK these days surprisingly many disillusioned and uninformed Brits enjoy doing it. Well from someone who is informed may I point out that the UK is the fifth biggest military power in the world and the most powerful in Europe, it is also the sixth biggest manufacturing country in the world. Not bad for a little pimple of a country on the back side of Europe as many people like to refer to it. No we don’t have an Empire that spans the globe any more but then again who does.
Well, it looks as if it will all kick off on Sunday. The Spanish fishermen had a meeting this afternoon and agreed to try and raise the concrete blocks from the Gibraltar reef.
“http://www.intereconomia.com/noticias-gaceta/politica/quien-tiene-que-retirar-los-bloques-gibraltar-20130816”
The Royal Navy ships arrive on Monday, so the fishermen are getting together to try and move them before the Royal Navy prevents them. Only problem is that the blocks weigh 12 tonnes each and they would have to send down divers to attach the lifting gear. Divers can be arrested and the Royal Gibraltar Police and Gibraltar Squadron of the Royal Navy will be there. Not to mention quite a few Gibraltarian divers, who may assist the RGP.
The news crews have been alerted, so you may be able to watch the spectacle on News 24 or Sky News.
Deborah: Don’t know how you got away with that dubious slander of a whole body of people. (probably outside of O.P.s range?)
Speaking of which, when will The Olive Press stretch to Catalunya? AND Valencia of course?
@Peter: So many Brits in Spain knock the UK as a covering exercise, they are trying to convince themselves they made the right choice.
They spent years informing family and friends in the UK that their life in Spain was wonderful, now that things have turned sour they are trying to save face. They are up to their necks in debt, their property is worth half of what it was, they can’t make ends meet. They come onto message boards stating ‘they would rather die than go back to the UK’
What they don’t know is that their family and friends and in the UK actually feel sorry for them.
¿Cómo sentiría a los británicos que España tuviera una colonia en sus islas y, además, refugio de capitales de dudosa procedencia? Supongo que mal. Pues aquí pasa lo mismo.
España tiene una colonia en tierras de otra persona – Ceuta y Melilla están en Marruecos, justo al otro lado del Estrecho de Gibraltar. España reclama estas tierras por Tratado (Lisboa, 1668), al igual que Gran Bretaña posee Gibraltar (Utrecht 1713). Los habitantes de Ceuta y Melilla tienen el derecho a la libre determinación y que quieren ser españoles. Los habitantes de Gibraltar también tienen el derecho a la libre determinación y que quieren ser británicos. España puede tener ninguna queja sobre Gibraltar mientras mantiene Ceuta y Melilla y el resto de islas de la costa marroquí.
No hay fondos dudosos en Gibraltar. Gibraltar cumple con las normas europeas de impuestos y proberty sobre lavado de dinero y comparte información con el resto de los estados, con excepción de España, ya que España se niega a compartir su información fiscal con Gibraltar.
Spain does have a colony on someone else’s land – Ceuta & Melilla are in Morocco, just across the Straits from Gibraltar. Spain claims these lands by Treaty (Lisbon 1668), just as Britain owns Gibraltar (Utrecht 1713). The people of Ceuta & Melilla have the right of self-determination and they want to be Spanish. The people of Gibraltar also have the right of self-determination and they want to be British. Spain can have no complaints about Gibraltar whilst you hold Ceuta & Melilla and all the other islands on the Moroccan coast.
There are no dubious funds in Gibraltar. Gibraltar complies with European standards of tax & proberty on money laundering and shares information with all other states, except Spain, because Spain refuses to share their tax information with Gibraltar.
@ amparo
think that you should refrain from using comments of a personal nature, my comments of course still stand with regards to Nigel being a politician, he of course thinks differently and who can blame him.
@Nigel your Spanish is amazing ! I live and work in Spain and have to put up with all these negative comments in the newspapers everyday, they are making such a big issue over something that is not theirs. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments regarding Mellila y Cueta, its doublé standards. One question i have is where does it say in the treaty about the waters or distance of the waters belonging to Gibralter, just wondered that´s all. Thank you
Here’s another thing to wonder about. Who PAYS for the protection that the U.K. offers to Gib? Does Gibraltar tip up money in the form of taxes to the U.K? Or will the poor old Brit taxpayer shoulder the burden of sticking up for somewhere that pays nowt? We all stoutly defend the right of self-determination of Gibraltar, but it would be nice to know they pay into the costs of the navy and the wages of the lads who are expected to wave a big stick at the recalcitrant Spanish.
Just wondered….
The United Kingdom has shouldered the burden (with others) of protecting the free world for hundreds of years. In my view, our armed forces are the best in the world, but I’m biased because I served in them.
The people of the United Kingdom expect their armed forces to be able to protect them and it is the duty of the Government to provide the men and women of the armed services with the tools they need to do this.
The United Kingdom pays the armed forces to preserve the peace, so that British citizens can enjoy the rights, freedoms and privileges to which they have become accustomed. Those same rights have been afforded to other nations.
During the Second World War, the United Kingdom fought on alone when all the other nations in Europe had crumbled before the fascists. We fought on and prevailed, freeing Europe from tyranny – whilst Franco & Spain stood idly by, encouraging Hitler.
It can even be said that without the re-organised Royal Navy, you would not have the modern industrialised society we have today, because it was the need to rebuild the Royal Navy in the seventeenth century which led to the creation of a centralised bank, which then created a ‘National Debt’.
It was from this that the Great Britain was the first nation in Europe to embrace industrialisation, which then led to the development of the greatest empire the world had ever seen. All the inventions you see and use today, derive from that event.
The people of Great Britain gladly pay for their armed forces and revere them, because without them, we would not be free.
@Jane
Spain’s case if that the Treaty of Utrecht did not mention waters. It didn’t mention airspace for that matter, but back in the 18th Century, people didn’t fly…. unless they were thrown off a cliff!
Jesús Verdú, a law professor from the University of Cadiz wrote about Utrecht and pointed out that inclusion of the waters was implicit in any treaty over land. If you read Utrecht, you will see that it does not mention Gibraltar waters or Spanish waters:
“http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Peace_and_Friendship_Treaty_of_Utrecht_between_Spain_and_Great_Britain”
You might want to read these articles:
“http://www.diariosur.es/v/20110502/campo-gibraltar//interrogantes-utrecht-20110502.html”
“http://www.publico.es/462535/espana-nunca-ha-reclamado-internacionalmente-las-aguas-de-gibraltar-porque-sabe-que-perderia”
The most relevant treaty though is United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS)
“http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea”
The relevant articles are:
Article 3 – which establishes that all nations have the right to claim out to 12 miles as territorial waters.
“http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea/Part_II”
Article 309 – which says that no reservations or exceptions may be made to this Convention unless expressly permitted by other articles of this Convention.
“http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea/Part_XVII”
Article 310 – which says that Article 309 does not preclude a State, when signing, ratifying or acceding to this Convention, from making declarations or statements, however phrased or named, with a view, inter alia, to the harmonization of its laws and regulations with the provisions of this Convention, provided that such declarations or statements do not purport to exclude or to modify the legal effect of the provisions of this Convention in their application to that State.
“http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea/Part_XVII”
What 309 and 310 mean is that whilst Spain was entitled to make a Declaration (which they did) it cannot modify the Treaty in any waY, unless the Treaty allowed this – which it did not.
When Spain made their declaration, they tried to exclude Gibraltar from the Treaty and suggest that the provisions of the Treaty did not apply. But as Article 309 states, there can be NO RESERVATIONS OR EXCEPTIONS.
This meant that when the UNCLOS Treaty came into force for Spain in 1992, then the waters around Gibraltar, out to the median point of Gibraltar Bay and out to 12 miles to the East became British Gibraltar Territorial Waters (BGTW). Gibraltar has only claimed 3 miles, but is entitled to 12.
Although Spain has the right of innocent passage in BGTW under UNCLOS, they frequently trespass in these waters. The Guardia Civil boats are not allowed under UNCLOS to patrol in BGTW and each time they have, Britain has lodged a formal protest with Spain.
The area of the artificial reef is most definitely in BGTW and so Spain has no right to fish or patrol these waters. Spanish fishermen would not be allowed to fish in these waters anyway, because according to the Junta de Andalusia, the area of the artificial reef is not an approved fishing area. So any Spanish boat fishing there is breaking not only Gibraltar laws, but Spanish laws too. If you don’t believe me, check the maps.
“http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/agriculturaypesca/moluzonasprodu/”
Hope that explains it all.
Basically, Spain does not have a claim and by manufacturing this dispute, they are about to be shown to be a fool before all other nations.
Nigel: So, from your history lesson, I take it, Gib DOESN’T pay it’s wack?
Thanks so much Nigel on the long explanation I appreciate it. I intend to learn all the facts and am going to read all the info you’ve put before me plus the treaty. Thanks once again you have a lot of patience
@stefano
British people – wherever they are in the world expect the armed forces of the United Kingdom to protect them – if it is possible. So when there was a conflict in Lebanon, or Libya, the Royal Navy was called upon to evacuate British citizens.
Gibraltar does not pay for the Royal Navy, or the Army, but neither does the Falkland Islands or the British possessions in the West Indies. The Royal Navy also patrols this region, captures drug smugglers (recent major captures) and gives aid after hurricanes. These islands are not expected to pay for this service.
What Gibraltar does pay for though, is the Gibraltar regiment which has sent units to serve in Afghanistan at no cost to the UK tax payer. The Falkland Islands also provides a Falkland Islands Defence Force, who help share the defence of the islands. The UK tax payer does not pay for the FIDF either.
The truth is that the United Kingdom would have to pay for the armed forces whether they were active or not. You might say that if we did not have to defend so many places around the globe, that we could get by with a much smaller armed forces, but this would ignore the significant role that Great Britain has played (and continues to play) in the defence of Europe through NATO.
Whether you like it or not, the United Kingdom is a nuclear state. We hold a permanent seat on the UN Security Council, because at the time it was formed, the United Kingdom was one of the Great Powers that won the Second World War. Great Britain may have diminished with the end of the British Empire, but British citizens still expect the UK to play a significant role (as we always have) in shaping and protecting the world of tomorrow.
Britain joined the European Economic Community, not only to benefit from trade, but also to shape the organisation as it evolved. However, it is becoming more of a single European state than the trading community it started out to be and Britain never intended to give up any sovereignty.
This is why we were extremely reluctant to join the single European currency – the disaster that the Euro has become – because the Euro was doomed to failure from the start. You could not enforce a single currency on so many disparate states without the original intention being to force these states to be subservient to one dominating state – the greater Fourth Reich under das Furher Geli!
Anyway, the truth is that Britain has to maintain a strong armed forces, to counter any threat to the United Kingdom and it is their duty to protect British citizens – wherever in the world they may be.
I hate bullies and the Spanish are being pathetic and showing their true colours regarding us Brits.
For this reason I have changed my holiday plans for Spain at the end of this month for Alvor, Algarve and will not be taking my usual half term break in October either to Malaga and have rearranged it to go to Crete. I am currently switching my Santander account and I am carefully avoiding buying any Spanish produce when shopping.
As big supermarket says “every little helps”
Well done Paula.
I’m also making sure that I do not buy any Spanish produce and if I go anywhere on holiday, it will be to Gibraltar.
The people of Crete will welcome you, because they really depend on the tourists to help them recover from the curse of the Euro.
I’m also boycotting Spanish goods, holidays and services. I’m also encouraging friends and colleagues to do the same. Spain are insanely jealous and envious of Gibraltar as it’s the only prosperous region on the mainland. Spain will only further damage it’s own economy and international reputation. History shows that they just cant seen to prevent themselves from hitting the self-destruct button.. Spain are relatively new to democracy and I believe that Latin temperament, which sometimes places more emphasis on emotion rather than reason or fact, is really their barrier to development. This makes then appear immature and infantile particularly in light of their response. This is only going to harm Spaniards at the end of the day
what can one do when one lives in Spain…..
Sort of interesting to see how the old imperium mentality of Britain is still very much at large. Most of us down here have chosen Southern Spain to live in because of the climate and Spanish people are really rather welcoming. Obviously the Spanish ruling classes are more arrogant very much like their English counterparts. So, let’s all get real and face up to the fact that the planet really is changing. Gibraltar will also have to change – not worth going to phony war about. Let the Spanish authorities tax the Internet gambling scams, let the tax dodgers from wherever be exposed and duly taxed.Everywhere tax havens are being schrutinized and will be closed down even though they are crucial to the operation of finance capital. And heaven forfend get rid of that deliberately provocative concrete reef.
bang on john,the mentality of the spanish is they would rather cut off their nose to spite their face….even when arguing in the mirror!!!
Aubrey
I rather suspect that you are Spanish rather than British. Only Spaniards believe the bull*hit created in Madrid that Gibraltar is
A) full of dodgy money (it is not – you have to provide as much information as opening an account in the UK); or;
B) that it is a tax haven (it shares tax information with other nations and the corporate rates are comparable with eastern europe; or;
C) that the internet gambling is a scam (it’s the best regulated in the world and a centre of excellence for it’s proberty); or;
D) that the reef is provocative (when it’s true purpose is to protect the environment and stop greedy Spanish fishermen who fish with illegal nets using a rake which destroys the seabed for other sea life and fishes illegally in a zone that is not approved for fishing by either the Spanish or the Gibraltan Government.
Only a fool would then say that Gibraltar has to change, when the charter of the United Nations says they have the right of Self-Determination, that they can then decide their own laws and then enforce them.
Only a fool would try to prevent their own population seeking work in another country, when the state they live in cannot provide that work, the unemployment is 30% in that region and then try to make it difficult for their own citizens to cross the border.
I would suggest that if you are not already Spanish (as I suspect you are) then you should renounce your British citizenship and embrace the economic disaster that is about to befall Spain. Have they taxed you enough yet. I hear that they are heavily taxing all British retirees, especially the ones with bank accounts offshore.
@ Aubrey…..¡¡¡POR FIN!!!. Alguien ha visto la luz.
Unfortunately the media have climbed on the bandwagon (as seen on Antena 3 this evening) which results in rattling everyone’s cages and serves for nothing, least of all unbiased reporting. And to read the Daily Mail readers postings (fed of course by the newspapers traditional anti-Spain attitude), any more intransigence by either side will screw up UK tourism next year.
And Picardo??. Quote, “Hell will freeze over before we (Gibraltar) move the concrete blocks”. Vaya, What a negotiator!.
Well the fishermen decided to make their protests, and from the video i saw the Guardia Civil were ushering them not to enter into Gibralter waters along with the Gibraltan pólice!
One question: if the Spanish knew the fishermen were plotting to do this, why did they not prevent them, they had since Friday?
Thanks for your slightly elongated answer Nigel. Which, boiled down is, “no, Gib doesn’t pay” and the armed forces of the U.K. have a duty “to protect British citizens-where ever in the world they may be.” Doesn’t one normally pay tax toward the defence of their realm? Perhaps some of the millions that are drained from the U.K. in online gaming could be diverted to that noble cause.
Aubrey: About time the views of actual Settlers in mainland Spain were heard.
The Spanish goverment haven´t put the concret blocks in the sea, depriving to the fishermen of their posibility of work
Well, if no Brits visited Spain on holiday, there would be no Brits to cross the border into Gibraltar and of course the Gibraltarians wouldn’t be crossing the border to visit Spain, so they may as well just close the border completely.
Julie Girling hasn’t really thought this one through has she?
@Anselmo
Spanish fishermen are not entitled to fish in the area where the concrete blocks were located. It is not an Open Zone according to the Junta de Andalusia.
“http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/agriculturaypesca/moluzonasprodu/”
Spain is the biggest user of artificial reefs in Europe. Most of them were paid for by the EU.
“http://www.besana.es/es/web/noticias/201108/junta-instala-25-arrecifes-artificiales-en-costa-andaluza-para-evitar-la-sobreexplotacion”
There are literally thousands of Spanish concrete blocks preventing Spanish fishermen from damaging the environment and helping to improve fish stocks.
“http://www.besana.es/es/web/noticias/201108/junta-instala-25-arrecifes-artificiales-en-costa-andaluza-para-evitar-la-sobreexplotacion”
Nigel:
In the page that you recomended i haven´t been capable of to see nothing.
Would you send me more information over this issue?.
Is a fact that the fishermen works in the waters surrounding Gibraltar since generations.
The instalation of an artificial reef wihtout permission of the autorithies is a punished by the law.
@anselmo
If you are having difficulty with the Junta page, click on the thin shell clams and it will show you the zones that are approved for fishing.
It does not matter if the fishermen have been fishing there historically – they have been breaking Gibraltar law every time they did.
The reef was installed with the permission of the Gibraltar Government and as the reef is in British waters, that is all that was needed.
Let me make it perfectly clear, the reef is in British Gibraltar Territorial Waters. The Government of Spain has repeatedly claimed that Gibraltar does not have territorial waters, but this is untrue.
The Treaty of Utrecht does not mention Spanish OR British waters. If Spain had intended to deprive Britain of the waters, the treaty should have said so. If Spain had attempted to exclude the waters, the treaty would never have been agreed to. The fact is that any treaty for land that has a coast, also includes the territorial waters, because the concept of territorial waters is a 20th Century construction. Morocco does not deny Spain the territorial waters of Ceuta or Melilla, even though they object to Spain owning these territories.
The UNCLOS treaty made it perfectly clear for all nations that territorial waters exist and they extend to 12 miles or the median point between 2 nations. Although countries were entitled to make a Declaration when they signed UNCLOS, this declaration could not modify the treaty to exclude anywhere from it. Spain tried to exclude Gibraltar, but they were told by the British Declaration that the Spanish exclusion was invalid by Article 310 of the Treaty.
Rajoy is a bully in true Franco tradition. In fact, the Partido Populare is descended from Franco’s fascist dictatorship.Rajoy has bullied the Basques in the North and the Catalonians in the East. Both want independence from Madrid with very good reason.Whether he will be able to bully Cameron in similar fashion is debatable given the lack of cojones exhibited by the British Prime Minister. With horrendous unemployment in Spain and corruption charges laid against himself and members of his party, he needs this distraction beautifully timed because Brussels ‘shuts down’ in August.
Stefanjo to answer your question without the rhetoric;
stefanjo
August 17th, 2013 7:50 pm
“Here’s another thing to wonder about. Who PAYS for the protection that the U.K. offers to Gib?”
Gibraltar has a UK base, for their own use, they do not pay Gibraltar as does the USA for the privilege of having a USA base in Rota. BILLIONS.
The Royal GIB RGT is paid for by UK, their taxes are paid in UK. The UK saves BILLIONS by not having to send their other Regiments to Gibraltar. The savings include, having to pay for their travel, their quarters, their extras for overseas postings, separate schools for their children, hospitals doctors staff etc etc. Once the GIB Regt men have been pensioned off, they are not able to claim all the other goodies which any person who has paid their taxes in UK all their life enjoy. Satisfied? Now if we became independent or sovereignty were transferred Britain would have to PAY BILLIONS for the use of the Naval Base as does the USA. Maybe those were the red lines that stopped Blair’s enthusiasm for the project of joint sovereignty.
Does Gibraltar tip up money in the form of taxes to the U.K? Or will the poor old Brit taxpayer shoulder the burden of sticking up for somewhere that pays nowt? We all stoutly defend the right of self-determination of Gibraltar, but it would be nice to know they pay into the costs of the navy and the wages of the lads who are expected to wave a big stick at the recalcitrant Spanish.
Just wondered….
Sorry that last paragraph was stefanjo’s full comment not part of mine.
May I also add that the Royal Gibraltar Regiment soldiers, have served and are serving in all the conflict zones in the world in the front lines shoulder to shoulder with other UK regiments. So there you have it Stefanjo, in one sentence Gibraltar does not cost UK Tax payers one single penny.
amparo;
Point a. Cameron is on “holiday” in Scotland. You have to be a politician to know what their “holidays” are like, much like working from home. No rest for the wicked.
Point b. Neither the BBC nor the British press have a negative attitude towards Spain. But when Spain is in the wrong, they have no qualms about saying so. I would like to remind you that thanks to the BBC the world got to know what was really going on during WWII. Which is not what one could say about Radio Nacional de Espana!
Point c. Spanish people do not have an inferiority complex. What they do have, I am sorry to say because I like Spanish people, is centuries of backwardness in what a Democracy is all about. (through no fault of their own) And it isn’t showing boobs on TV.
Point d. Everyone is afraid of nuclear weapons. What one cannot be is hypocritical and claim to high heaven about nuclear propelled submarines visiting Gibraltar, and inviting these same submarines to go to Rota instead, “because they would be less visible”. And on top of it all, the Spanish authorities do not seem to mind at all that there are nuclear cemeteries in Spain. What it boils down to is money, money money, or good old Greenbacks
Point e. I believe the Catalans are well versed in what it would mean to become independent, the good and the bad that would go with it. If they are not, they should be. I also believe that if that is what the majority want, they should be allowed to give it a try, much like Scotland. Democracy in the making. What you cannot do is subdue a people by the use of threats.
Maybe Andalucia should give it a try. Or if that is not acceptable to the majority try the Federal model that Rubalcaba has been posturing. Why should Madrid be fed and their politicians paid by everybody else’s taxes and then have to beg for their share back?
Point f. Clegg, can’t even remember what he looks like.
Maybe Spain has the worst justice in the EU, and the politician’s worst class that one might have.
Probably Spanish might be the worst people of here (it is possible to see all kinds of comment more above), and we live with a persons’ great quantity that they do not want to be Spanish, and they hate to the Spanish, Spain and our flag.
I understand that the critique on us. I agree about that the Spanish people think that someone is going to come here and to be going to solve all our problems.
I like United Kingdom and I knew wonderful people when I was there. But I do not understand why there are people who lives in the past when Spanish and British fought.
The whole hatred that it is possible to see here avoid probably to solve problems.
I never will go to country that I hate, like some people hate Spain.
I hope that I never will feel this. Maybe It would be better
that Spain does not exist anymore for some people. These people might fight with this boat against other countries.
Nigel:
I have found that, in effect, the Junta de Andalucia not include the waters around Gibraltar as fishing grounds.
But the fact is that fishermen fished around forever, and can not be an illegal activity and that supports the Spanish State.
On the other hand I have read the allegations made by the Spanish in signing UNCLOS, and based on the argument that this convention can not be applied to Gibraltar as it is a territory in the process of decolonization.
Anselmo
The Junta de Andalusia specifies the exact areas that are open for Spanish fishermen. The areas around Gibraltar are not included as open areas – why is that?
It’s because the Junta know that these waters belong to British Gibraltar. So that means the Spanish fishermen cannot legally fish there without the permission of the Government of Gibraltar.
Spanish fishermen fished in Gibraltar waters and usually abided by Gibraltar laws. Most of them still do. There was an agreement between the Gibraltar Government and the fishermen to control where fishing was allowed and how they fished.
I recently saw an interview with Fabian Picardo where he discussed coming to a new agreement with the fishermen so that they can resume fishing.
However, there is one fisherman, the owner of the Divina Providencia, who repeatedly fished with illegal nets which would not be allowed in Spanish waters (the gaps were too narrow and caught immature fish) and used a rake (which would also not be allowed in Spanish waters), which damaged the sea bed for other wildlife. This fisherman refused to comply with Gibraltar laws.
He’s not the only one though. Others use a light (lucero) to attract the fish, so they can catch them. This is also illegal by Gibraltar law, but these fishermen refuse to obey the law.
When Gibraltar police approach their boats to stop them, the Guardia Civil boats come out to intervene and prevent any arrest – even though the GC’s presence in Gibraltar waters is a violation of UNCLOS.
As for UNCLOS, it applies to Gibraltar, because Gibraltar is British territory and Britain signed the treaty. Gibraltar was only included in the United Nations decolonisation list (the C24 committee) because Spain requested it. The people of Gibraltar do not want to be decolonised – because they don’t need to, they are self-governing already.
Nothing in UNCLOS says that it does not apply to colonies. If it did then Ceuta and Melilla would not have territorial waters. The notion that UNCLOS does not apply to colonies was an invention of the Spanish Government. Another of the lies they tell.
The same as the lie that the waters were not included on the Treaty or Utrecht, it does not even mention waters – no treaty of that time does, they don’t mention airspace either, but waters are implicit in the Treaty.
Another lie is that the Isthmus is not British, when there were numerous treaties after Utrecht which defined the limitations of British territory, or that UNCLOS Declarations made by Spain invalidate the treaty for Gibraltar – they don’t, in fact, the treaty applies to all countries and cannot be excluded.
Spain continues to tell lies about Gibraltar to further their cause of reclaiming the Rock. They cannot persuade the Gibraltarians to become Spanish, so they have to lie, to cheat, to bully the Gibraltarians, because Spain can never win.
Nigel:
I appreciate the attention that you put in your detailed responses to my comments.
But the fact is that Spain does not recognize that UNCLOS may apply to Gibraltar because it is in the process of decolonization, and that depends only on UK and Spain, the people of Gibraltar have nothing to say. These issues are superior to the individuals. For example, a French,can not become irish just by wishing. He Would have to request the change of nationality etc.
Regarding Ceuta I have no news about UN resolutions for his decolonization. I would appreciate news about this issue.
With regard your comentary about that Spain indicated its agreement with the occupation of the isthmus, I haven´t news
Greetings
@Anselmo
Maybe you should read more history.
Spain might not recognise that UNCLOS applies to Gibraltar, but the rest of the world does.
Spain has never challenged the right of UNCLOS to apply to Gibraltar in the International Court, because Spain knows that they would lose.
Spain’s top law officer stated as such some years ago, that Spain did not have a case. It all comes down to the fact that the Treaty could not be excluded from Gibraltar. Article 310 made it perfectly clear that no matter what any nation declared, they could not vary the treaty to exclude the treaty from applying to anywhere.
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_the_isthmus_between_Gibraltar_and_Spain”
The status of the territory between the North Front of The Rock and La Linea was settled militarily and diplomatically over 200 years ago.
In 1713, at the time of the cession of Gibraltar in perpetuity to the British Crown, various fortifications were established and occupied by British troops in the area which came to be known as ‘the British Neutral Ground’. This was the area to the North of Gibraltar, militarily conquered and continuously occupied by the British except, during time of war.
After the Spanish attack (In Breach of Spain’s written promise in the treaty of Utrecht) in 1727 was repulsed by the British, the Treaty of Seville (1729) was the scene of long arguments between the Government of Spain and the United Kingdom as to how far North the ‘undoubted right’ of Britain extended from the North face of the Rock and it was finally accepted that a distance of 600 Toises, being more than 2 cannon shots distance between the British guns and the Spanish guns, would be considered ‘the neutral gound’, and so it continued thereafter.
[Editors Note: Paolo Narvaez Guarnieri defines a Toise as a unit equivalent to length of two arms. Equal to 1.949 meters or 6 feet]
After the 14th siege ended in 1783, the British resumed the occupation of the British half of the neutral ground, and at least since 1838, when permanent sentries were posted along the line of the then existing frontier, the entire area has been exclusively occupied and administered by the Gibraltar authorities.
In 1908 the British constructed a fence along ‘the British edge of the neutral territory at Gibraltar’ (actually, to avoid offending Spain it was put 1 metre inside the British territory) and, for reasons of courtesy, gave notice to the Government of Spain before doing so.
During the construction of the border fence, the Governor of Algeciras was instructed to complain that it was being built “one or two metres in advance” of the British line, and he explained in his letter to the Governor of Gibraltar “I should not have called your excellency’s attention were it not that such construction has gone beyond the line of British sentries”.
As has often been the case, statements made by the Spanish Government are less than accurate and cannot be relied upon.
The British foreign secretary Sir Edward Grey had the matter looked into and in 1909 wrote to the Spanish ambassador in London to draw to his attention and request that he inform his Government in Madrid that “It is perfectly clear … that the fence … will be entirely upon British territory”. The Spanish Government did not seek to argue the contrary and in any event gained 1 metre of the sovereign territory of Gibraltar, which they continue to occupy today.
As for Ceuta and Melilla, may you should read this UN document from 2001 (Page 35 onwards:
“http://www.un.org/spanish/aboutun/organs/ga/56/verbatim/a56pv49.pdf”
The same document also refers to Gibraltar, insofar as it mentions that the United Kingdom continues to stand by the commitment to the people of Gibraltar set out in the Preamble to the 1969 Constitution of Gibraltar, which enshrines the principle of consent of the people of Gibraltar to any change in sovereignty.
Nigel:
I also think that I need to learn more history, but much more of everything. And I try. I think that one of the good things in life is, indeed, to learn new things every day.
I agree with You on the fact that all signatories to UNCLOS, the only country that does not recognize UK territorial waters around Gibraltar, is Spain.
In the reference you’ve been kind enough to refer, I have found no UN resolution on decolonization of Ceuta and Melilla.
With respect to the isthmus, the fact is that Spain considered illegal occupation by UK.
Regarding the right of self-determination of the people of Gibraltar, this is not recognized either by the UN or by Spain.
Greetings
Anselmo
Self-Determination is one of the over-riding principles of the Charter of the United Nations. That is why it is so prominent in the Charter:
“http://www.un.org/en/documents/charter/chapter1.shtml”
“1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;
2.To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;”
As a member of the United Nations, Gibraltar is entitled to Self Determination. This was made very clear in Press Release GA/SPD/237:
“http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/GASPD237.doc.htm”
“In the process of decolonization, there was no alternative to self-determination, the Chief Minister of Gibraltar told the Fourth Committee (Special Political and Decolonization) this afternoon, as it heard from representatives of Non-Self-Governing Territories, petitioners and governments.
By a process of “smoke and mirrors”, the Chief Minister continued, Spain was trying to merge two issues into one; decolonization on the one hand, and a territorial dispute on the other. He urged that the question of Gibraltar be given to the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion. He also requested the General Assembly to include in its annual resolution on the matter the need for both the United Kingdom (the administering Power) and Spain (the territorial claimant) to consult the wishes of the people of Gibraltar in resolving the matter. ”
It might help if you read the United Nations Report of the Special Committee on the Situation with regard to the Implementation of the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples on its work during 2001.
The arguments of both sides were put forward.
However, it was pointed out by the representatives of Gibraltar that United Nations resolution 1514 gave ALL PEOPLES the right to Self Determination.
THAT INCLUDES GIBRALTAR…
“http://www.un.org/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/RES/1514(XV)&Lang=E&Area=RESOLUTION”
Might help if you read this version:
“http://www.un.org/en/decolonization/declaration.shtml”
Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14 December 1960
The General Assembly,
Mindful of the determination proclaimed by the peoples of the world in the Charter of the United Nations to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,
Recognizing the passionate yearning for freedom in all dependent peoples and the decisive role of such peoples in the attainment of their independence,
A ware of the increasing conflicts resulting from the denial of or impediments in the way of the freedom of such peoples, which constitute a serious threat to world peace,
Considering the important role of the United Nations in assisting the movement for independence in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories,
Recognizing that the peoples of the world ardently desire the end of colonialism in all its manifestations,
Convinced that the continued existence of colonialism prevents the development of international economic co-operation, impedes the social, cultural and economic development of dependent peoples and militates against the United Nations ideal of universal peace,
Affirming that peoples may, for their own ends, freely dispose of their natural wealth and resources without prejudice to any obligations arising out of international economic co-operation, based upon the principle of mutual benefit, and international law,
Believing that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in order to avoid serious crises, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,
Welcoming the emergence in recent years of a large number of dependent territories into freedom and independence, and recognizing the increasingly powerful trends towards freedom in such territories which have not yet attained independence,
Convinced that all peoples have an inalienable right to complete freedom, the exercise of their sovereignty and the integrity of their national territory,
Solemnly proclaims the necessity of bringing to a speedy and unconditional end colonialism in all its forms and manifestations;
And to this end Declares that:
1. The subjection of peoples to alien subjugation, domination and exploitation constitutes a denial of fundamental human rights, is contrary to the Charter of the United Nations and is an impediment to the promotion of world peace and co-operation.
2. All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
3. Inadequacy of political, economic, social or educational preparedness should never serve as a pretext for delaying independence.
4. All armed action or repressive measures of all kinds directed against dependent peoples shall cease in order to enable them to exercise peacefully and freely their right to complete independence, and the integrity of their national territory shall be respected.
5. Immediate steps shall be taken, in Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories or all other territories which have not yet attained independence, to transfer all powers to the peoples of those territories, without any conditions or reservations, in accordance with their freely expressed will and desire, without any distinction as to race, creed or colour, in order to enable them to enjoy complete independence and freedom.
6. Any attempt aimed at the partial or total disruption of the national unity and the territorial integrity of a country is incompatible with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
7. All States shall observe faithfully and strictly the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the present Declaration on the basis of equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of all States, and respect for the sovereign rights of all peoples and their territorial integrity.
I repeat for clarity:……
2. ALL PEOPLES HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
Anselmo
Spain is seeking the return of sovereignty over land they gave away 300 years ago, FOREVER.
Spain cannot persuade the Gibraltarians to become Spanish, primarily because the Gibraltarians identify themselves as British, in terms of their upbringing, their laws and the way they live, their society.
Spain offers no advantages to the Gibraltarians and many disadvantages. After two referendums, both of which said that 98% were in favour of remaining British, Spain has accepted that the Gibraltarians want to be British. But the only way to get past that crucial point, that undeniable right – is to ignore those rights.
Spain knows that they cannot overcome the right to self-determination, so they suggest that it does not exist.
Spain continues to claim that Gibraltar is a colony when it is actually self-governing. The reason that Spain considers Gibraltar a colony is so they can maintain their claim (through the United Nations) to a process of Decolonisation, designed to ‘remove’ the British.
However, the problem is that the people of Gibraltar WANT to be British. So they cannot decolonise Gibraltar without removing the peoples of Gibraltar. but as these peoples, have the right to self determination and it is their land, you cannot force their removal.
That’s why Spain bullies Gibraltar – to make it uncomfortable for the people to remain there. Only the bullying does not work. It does the opposite. It makes the people of Gibraltar want to be more British, to fight the nasty Spanish people who want to make life tough for them.
The fact remains that the United Nations has decided that all people have the right to self determination, to decide their own political, economic, social and cultural development.
This applies to Gibraltar and there is nothing that Spain can do to deny this – no matter how much they try to bully the people of Gibraltar.
OK. Enough now Olive Press. This is getting nowhere. I am sad to hear so much venom from many subscribers. I have lived in Catalunya and Andalucía for years and wouldn’t live anywhere else. Judge the people not its Governments.
Nigel:
The people have no rights, are abstract entities that exist only in our minds. Individuals have rights, and legal entities such as states or companies, also because they are treated as individuals .
The right of self-determination isapplied, in effect,to colonies. But in the case of Gibraltar, the application of this law undermine the territorial integrity of Spain, and that goes against the Charter of the UN (Resolution 2353 of 1967 XXII).
UK must comply with the UN resolution to decolonize Gibraltar and Spain ensure that human rights of Gibraltarians are respected.
So Spain is a bully? What about Wales, Cornwall, Ireland, Scotland, Argentina (Falkland islands), India, America (native americans)? It seems like England has a long history of being a bully. I sorta hope that Spain gets the rock back. Why the hell do the English think they have a right to take a little bit away from everyone on earth? And their snobs too.
Nigel, you talk a lot.
Ben,
not American are you?
The British kept faith with the treaties they made with the indigenous people, the USA has broken every treaty they ever made.
The real reason for the colonial uprising was that the British had a treaty not to cross into the Alleghenny mountains and the colonists were greedy to take even more land.
Once the colonists had got rid of the British they set out to exterminate the indigenous peoples and to that end they murdered over 17 million. The Spanish directly by murder and by infection killed over 40 million in Central and South America. Through jealousy they destroyed the incredibly well designed and built cities of the Aztec and Inca civilzations – take a good look at the what they have ‘achieved’ since then.
You need to deprogramme yourself and input some reality pal.
@ Stuart Crawford. I don’t disagree with you. But don’t get too smug because I think the indigenous Aussies had a bit of a problema with those that arrived by boat as well. And the uninvited arrivals weren’t exactly the cream of the cream.
And Maggie Harper is right. This needle has worn out.