Karl SmallmanSITUATED some 2000kms south of Britain, it sometimes makes you wonder how Gibraltar could be British. And while one might question the legalities of it becoming British back in the 18th century, fast forward 300 years and British it most certainly is.
With English as the main language, red phone boxes and a giant Morrison’s supermarket for all your shopping needs, it couldn’t be further removed from its neighbour.
Then ask the 29,500 residents if they want to stay British (they were given full British citizenship in 1981) and the vast majority will say yes. in fact, in a 2002 referendum almost 99 per cent of Gibraftarians voted to remain British.
And that is where the argument should end.
While Spain may feel entitled to the enclave on a geographical basis, taking it back is impractical.
Aside from the fact that they would be uprooting families who have lived there for generations, what about the rights to exist of the new Balkan nations?
And then there is the debate over Ceuta and Melilla, which Spain is unlikely to return to Morocco.
Surely, it is about time Spain relinquished its claim, stayed out of the immediate waters and let bygones be bygones.
And for god’s sake drop the daft toll idea!
Gibraltar has been British for 306+ years; Spanish for 242. Should the US, which has been independent for a shorter period than Gibraltar has been British therefore give Florida back to Spain too?
Before the arab invasion,Gibraltar was part of the spanish visigotic kingdom for three centuries, and before it was part of the roman province Hispania, more than seven centuries.
So what you’re saying Marcelo is that Spain should really belong to Italy…
IF YOU LOOK ON THE MAP, GIBRALTAR IS PART OF THE SPANISH MAINLAND.AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN..AND WILL BE AGAIN, ITS JUST A MATTER OF TIME. POLITICS ASIDE..UNLESS SPAIN IS GIVEN CORNWALL OR THE ISLE OF WHITE.. DOESN’T MAKE SENSE DOES IT??????
Schoefield doesn’t understand history. Gibralter as an entity is older than Spain. It will never belong to Spain; you have to respect the peoples right to self determination. Luckily, Schofield (a Spaniard masquerading as an expat) is the one making no sense, as always lol.
GEOGRAPHY LESSON …WALES AND SCOTLAND ARE SEPARATE NATIONS,WITH DIFFERENT LANGUAGES AND TRADITION,S… NOW PAY ATTENTION…THEY ARE THE SAME ISLAND AS ENGLAND,PART OF THE SAME PLACE.. NOW DO YOU GET THE CONNECTION..IT,S SPAIN…LAUGH OUT LOUD…..HISTORY….!!!!!!
Nick – a quick netiquette point. Typing in capital letters on the Internet is considered rude because it is difficult to read and comes across as very aggressive (LIKE SHOUTING!) Please refrain.
KARL …..MY EYESIGHT IS POOR, LIKE MY TOLERANCE FOR PEOPLE THAT DISLIKE SPAIN (THAT ACTUALLY LIVE HERE) SO THE TRUTH IS OUT I CANT SEE, EVEN WITH GLASSES ON…POOR OLD BOY THAT I AM……….
Stop press.. the “Capslock King” agrees with Fred in his last post. Or could it be that Schofield says Portugal and France should also be part of Spain? It’s hard to tell. Following that “logic” perhaps all mainland Europe and anything with a land border beyond that should really be part of Schofields’ greater spain.
Marcelo there was no “spanish visigotic kingdom” but there was an Iberian Visigothic Kingdom.
In 1469, the crowns of the Christian kingdoms of Castile and Aragon were united by the marriage of Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon forming the Kingdom of Spain. Prior to this the Kingdom of Spain did not exist.
Nick – latest versions of Microsoft’s Internet Explorer and Mozilla’s Firefox internet browsers allow you to maginify the web page (View -> Zoom) – so that should enable you to see what you’re writing and allow you to turn the CAPS LOCK off.
Or you could just go Ctrl and + together Nick, that will magnify a webpage in most browsers… No need to “shout” any more, it’s not very nice for the rest of us…
>Schofields’ greater spain.
lol that is funny. Some people just can’t understand simple concepts, like, er, “borders”. Tell us more about the World, Nick, I need something to laugh at during the day.
The real gibraltarians were expelled from the Rock when the Englishs and Duchts took it over in the name of one of the Spanish pretenders to the Spanish crown. It was planned in the tipical and piratic English way of acting in History.
The present gibraltarians are descendants of the servants brought to serve the garrison.
We, the Spaniards, don´t admit they can dispose of a part of our territory.
In a next future is not possible a military solution, but we can close the fence and make the life in Gibraltar the most unconfortable possible, like a jail. That will make to think.
Marcelo, but didn’t you write above that Spain was part of the Roman province of “Hispania”, so surely Spain should actually belong to Italy? And if Gibraltar was part of “Hispania” then that also must belong to Italy?? Surely that’s right? Italy is the successor to the Roman Empire, no? Oh, and Ceuta and Melilla used to be part of the Roman province of “Mauretania Tingitana”, so I guess they should also belong to Italy…
There are no borders in Europe any more..the only borders are at Gibraltar,we are all part of the E.U.Its only a matter of time for Gibraltar, to remain as an autonomous region of Spain and at the same time be part of the great nation of Spain…Is that too differcult to understand!!!!!People that think of Europe having borders are living in the dark ages..LAUGH OUT LOUD………………..
Nick, you obviously have not heard of the Schenegen agreement or the EU Customs Union (which Gibraltar along with Ceuta, Melilla and Canarias does not belong to). There’s a controlled border at Gibraltar for a reason, in exactly the same way there is one when you come into Spain from Ceuta.
Just goes to show that age doesn’t buy wisdom. Amazing that such shocking ignorance like this still exists. ‘Old boy’ Nick, leave running the world to the youngsters. lol.
I think Spain needs every penny it can get and turning the Rock into another dusty desert will not help the Spanish economy. The problem with Spain is they have been milking expats for years and the expats have finally woken up. Gibraltar brings millions to Spain every year, they should be making it easier to get to Spain not harder.
Start that game and the locals will boycott the local Town.
>we can close the fence and make the life in Gibraltar the >most unconfortable possible, like a jail
Of course, this is really how most Spaniards feel about expats – thanks for clarifying that Marcelo.
And by the way you totally forgot the fact that La Linea was trying to monetise the border-crossing into Gibralter, so Spain is not trying to ‘close the fence’ in any way at all; quite the opposite in fact. One only has to peer over the border to see the mess La Linea is in to see why Gibralter doesn’t want to become like that.
Here we go again. In this day and age we should accept everybody’s right to decide their future. Nick you are the one living in the dark ages if you don’t understand and accept the concept of human rights. Anyway what would be gained by spain if they took over gibraltar? take out their ‘thorn in their side’?, restore national pride? that way of thinking also belongs to the dark ages. And what next….no work for their 20,000 plus commuting workers on the rock?
“we can close the fence”
Yup Marcelo, Franco tried that, and the only people who felt “most unconfortable possible” were all the thousands of Spanish who suddenly lost their jobs in Gibraltar. Not to mention the many thousands who had to leave the Campo de Gibraltar to find work elsewhere, even outside of Spain. Ever heard the expression “to shoot oneself in the foot”?
Ben: the visigotic kingdom was Hispania, not Iberia. Portugal belonged to it. Later when the arab invasion, Portugal got separated of the Kingdom of Leon to which belonged. Spain keeps the name.
Marcelo is your typical Spanish chump.
He regurgitates all the lies taught to him in Spanish schools but have to say this is on a par with the lies taught in UK schools about the ‘wonderful’ English empire.
Marcelo, most Spanish I talked to really believed they were Latins, sory pal to burst your balloon – about 2% of Spanish have Latin blood – their female ancestors having been raped by Roman soldiers.
The original Iberians were and are the Euskadi, these people have been in Europe for over 40,000 years. Next come the Celts who have been in the Iberian peninsular for over 4,000 years, then the Occitanos/Catalans.
The Goths/Visigoths and Vandals are illegal aliens from the Steppes like the rest of the white Aryans in Europe.
Most of the southern Spanish are Semites both Arab and Hebrew, which most southern Spanish seem ashamed of, which is surprising because until the Aryan savages invaded Spain, it was the most educated and advanced country in the whole of Europe.
From the arrogant way you present yourself, you must be descended from one of the primitive Aryan tribes that wilfuly destroyed all the universities and agricultural advances made by the Semites. Maybe it’s time for you to go home to the Steppes?
So Marcelo, you say the english took the rock in a typical piratic way? Super power spain sent almost half of their fleet to expell 3 or 4 moroccan guards from isla perejil some years ago. Typical spanish pirate ways too eh !!
Still waiting for your answer Marcelo… Shouldn’t Spain, Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla really belong to Italy? Anytime you are ready…
Marcelo and Schofield are one and the same chump. lol.
Guirizano: I meant that Spain exists since the fallen of Romam Empire
After the Romans came the germanic tribes. They occupied the iberian peninsula in the 5th century, So the kingdom of spain came a bit later Marcelo
So where do you draw the line Marcelo? Is it after the Romans, after the Goths etc, after the Moors or in the case of Gibraltar after the British? Surely it is up to the people who live in Gibraltar today to decide their own future?
Always the same. Too boring. The interest of MoD is the real key of the issue.
Whilst we can´t use the military solution, we must apply the maximun of restrictions to the Gibraltarians, used as pretext by UK to keep the naval facilities for the fleet.
We´ll see what the young people have to say about to spend their lives in a jail.
Marcelo. Everyone else please ignore.
I tried to point out to you that the kingdom of Spain was only created in 1469. That’s a fact. It did not exist after the fall of the roman empire which was almost a thousand years earlier. Another fact. I said there was an Iberian Visigothic kingdom. This means there was a Visigothic kingdom on the Iberian penisular. Do you understand the difference?
Under roman commission the Visigoths controlled almost all of the Iberian peninsular and it was called Regnum Visigothorum including the territory of modern southern Portugal. Not Hispania. Modern northern Portugal was in Regnum Suevorum. Again not Hispania. The original name is derived from earlier Canaanite Hebrew, Carthegenian or Celtic. That was the name the Romans gave the Imperial province but after the legions left it quickly lost the collective “Hispania” and broke into independent kingdoms. After the romans it was conquered in part by the Byzantine Empire followed by Celts (again), Suevi, Vandals, Visigoths, Germananic tribes and north african muslims to name a few.
I think possibly you are under the impression that because Hispania contains the word spain you conclude that modern Spain can trace it’s historical territory uninterrupted back to pre-roman times. That’s a fallacy.
The County of Portugal became a fief of the Kingdom of León in 868. It did not become separated by any “arab” invasion. The arabs come from the arabian peninsular. Neither Leon nor the County of Portugal existed prior to any north African muslim invasion when the area was controlled by Arian Germanic Buri, Suevi and Vandal kings.
It was only in the 12th century that the Iberian peninsular became to be known as “spainia” and this was derived from the arabic Isb?n?ya or (???????) regardless of the the religion or ethnicity of the ruler of any of the many separate kingdoms.
King Alfonso I of Aragon (1104–1134) says in his documents that “he reigns over Pamplona, Aragon, Sobrarbe y Ribagorza”, and that when in 1126 he made an expedition to Málaga he “went to the lands of España”. Not came from you will notice. Are you still with me?
So in summary many groups have controlled the territory of Gibraltar through the ages and modern spain has the distinction of being one of those who have held it for the shortest time in recorded history.
There is simply not enough room here to teach you about the history of this area when it is obvious you know next to nothing. Throw out your old primary school history books and forget the jingoistic teachings of your youth and discover the wonderful rich history of Spain and Hispania for yourself.
It seems the arabic i wrote has appeared as (???????). sorry about that.
Alan,
the Aryans did’nt occupy the whole of the Iberian peninsular at all.
The little Swabians tried to take Galicia (Gaelic Celts) and got butchered. The Visigoths invaded what is now the Asturias but could only hold the low ground, they never managed to take any of the mountain territory at all and the mountain people to this day are Gaelic, their pipers still retain the sounds of Asia to this day, quite unique.
The Catalans forced the Aryans to enter the peninsular via the mountains and are to this day very pround of their acheivements and quite rightly do not consider themselves ‘Spanish’ at all.
The Euskadi, wrongly called the Basque are and were an incredible people, hugely creative and great mariners. The Inquisition was introduced to Spain by the Aryans of Castille who were so jealous of the Euskadi and used this vile Roman tool to falsely indict them so that they could steal their lands and possesions.
If you travel the length of Spain, which I have you can clearly see where the Aryans were forced to live, which is in the largely barren centre.
Both of the most well known mass murderers of the indigenous peoples of Central and South America were Cortez/Visigoth and Pizarro/Goth, which to this day many Spanish consider to be ‘heroes’.
Such as shame you find my question boring Marcelo. You think Gibraltar should become Spanish because it used to be Spanish 300 years ago. Using the same logic, Spain, Gibraltar, Ceuta and Melilla should be Italian because they used to be Roman (ie Italian) a 1500 years ago. The question is where do you draw the line? Is that too difficult to answer?
Oh if you know so much about the MoD, then perhaps you can explain why the MoD presence on the Rock today is a very small fraction of what it used to be?
Well marcelo, no you can’t use a military solution cause your armed forces wouldn’t have the guts against the brits would they? Just look at the current conflicts in the world, the US and Britain are on the frontline, and where are your forces? quite a long way off the frontline and the danger of the battlefield. Every day US and british soldiers die so that we can have a safe world, and your country is just waiting in the comfort zone waiting to reap the benefits of other people’s sacrifice. I am gibraltarian, my grandfather fought in burma, he helped give me the freedom i enjoy today, my father served in the navy. So i know first hand how to appreciate and defend my right to freedom and self determination. So don’t come with your big bully boy threats only because we are a small country. Remember we have a very big brother that has fought in the ring with the biggest in the world (WW 1, WW2). Send your armed forces into the ring with someone in their own weight category
That is the reason why we have to apply the maximun of restrctions. That will make people think. Remember that all the attempts to get an agreement, like the Lisbon one, the Brussels, Joint sovereingty, Trilateral talks etc.., have come after Spain has tightened the screws.
I know very well that old talibans will never agree, but what about young people?
To act so is for the great interests of Spain.
I see you have not bothered to answer my question Marcelo. Is that because explaining your own logical gymnastics is beyond you?
As for tightening the screws. You tried that from 1969 to 1982. And where did it get you? If you think Brussels, Joint sovereignty etc arose because of Spain tightening the screws, you are only slightly deluded…
Marcelo, there is no logig in your arguments or reasoning. Your way of thinking goes way back to the franco era, when they thought that by closing the frontier we would starve. BIG MISTAKE!! Because what that actually acheived was to make us feel even stronger and our feelings of identity flourished and grew. We felt even more gibraltarians than before. So in a way if your country wants to do the same now, well all they would achieve is the same result. Marcelo you have a very old fashioned and retarded concept on how to resolve this issue. With that attitude you and your country can never in a ever win us over. The way to do it is pure and simple, mutual respect, good neighbourly relations, and not in this generation but maybe in 3 or 4 generations (or hopefully in a million years!!) by simple choice that generation could think in another way. I personally have many friends over the border and i get on with them great, i even go out weekends with them. So you see Marcelo, i have nothing against the ‘majority’ of spaniards or even against your country (which by the way i think is beautiful) It’s just people like you that mess things up
From the tone of these threads I am sure someone will tell me that I dont understand-and probably in an aggressive and patronising way. I am a Brit expat and I love living in Spain, and the Spanish. But I find a lot of Brits have a very rosy view of the UK and a very negative view of the country in which they now live, and of their hosts. Puzzles me why they stay really. So we have learned a lot of history from these threads but what about the future? Why is Gibraltar so important to the Brits? Surely it is an anachronism and legacy from the past and an irritation to the Spanish, in part due to its benevolent tax/duty regime? Why not cede the territory to Spain and then the 29000 Gib EU citizens can live in Spain like the million or so expats do. What is the problem? Maybe we Brits still have trouble shedding our colonial past and attitudes and still have pretensions to be GREAT Britain, even though our relative wealth and population do not allow us to be great any more.
Or in the words of Land of Hope and Glory-God who made thee mighty make thee mightier yet-how pathetically jingoistic in the 21st century. Live and let live.
Steve,
What you’re saying is that the Gibraltarians count for nothing. You’re suggesting that their home can just be ceded away by the UK over their heads? You talk of pathetic jingoism, yet you are quite happy for a people to be treated like pieces on a chessboard. Isn’t that what the UK did at the height of its Empire? Pot, kettle, black? It’s not that Gibraltar is important to the Brits, it’s that is is important to the Gibraltarians.
And if Gibraltar is such an anachronism, then why does Spain not cede away Ceuta, Melilla and all the other “plazas de soberania” dotted along the North African coast to Morocco or whoever? Most of the plazas don’t even have populations (other than military garrisons).
Oh, and Ceuta and Melilla have benevolent tax/duty regimes, yet that doesn’t seem to be a problem yet it is for Gibraltar. How is that?. Ceuta and Melilla remain Spanish because the people who live there want to remain Spanish. The Gibraltarians want to remain British. Why can’t they? It puzzles me why in the 21st century a “modern”, “democratic” country like Spain can’t accept the freely expressed, democratic wishes of the Gibraltarians, it really does. It should puzzle you too!
Guirizano: th feeling of identity of spaniards begun with the visigotics,after the fall of Roman Empire. This kingdom last three centuries and included Lusitania (Portugal).
Later the arabs invaded Hispania, and defeated the visigotics, thanks to the treason of the count Don Julián, who made a pact with the arabs and he was enemy of the last King Don Rodrigo.
Ceuta y Melilla are two spanish towns, much before the existence of the kingdom (Sultan) of Morocc. Spain has parts in the other side of the Straight. Exactly like Turkey.
After the arab invasion, the christians from the North that never was conquered, began the reconquist, slowly but surely, untill they were completely expelled.
Later when the Succesion War, Gibraltar and Menorca become english for the sake of another treason.
We could recover Minorca, but not Gibraltar wich is a permanent spanish claim The real gibraltarians were expelled and replaced for imported people to serve the garrison. To be gibraltarian and to be able to vote, it´s neccesary to be registered in the Register of Gibraltarians. The Governor can expel from it to whom is not loyal to the Queen.
You have not answered my question Marcelo.
So did the Catalans, Gallegos and Basques also have the same feeling of identity? It just proves the point nobody can tell someone what they are, and only a Spaniard. Identity is something you decide for yourself. The Gibraltarians have decided they are not Spanish.
Oh, and you need to brush up on your history Marcelo, because Ceuta was not Spanish “before the existence of the Kingdom of Morocco”. It was taken from the Kingdom of Fez (the predecessor state to Morocco) by the Portuguese only became Spanish in 1668, when it was ceded to Spain. Not very long before Gibraltar became British! And because the people of Ceuta voted to become Spanish. But you deny that to the Gibraltarians, a vote to remain British?
Who are the “real” Gibraltarians Marcelo? Are they the people who lived there under Roman rule, under Gothic rule, under Moorish rule, under Castillian rule or under British rule? Where do you draw the line Marcelo? Where do you draw the line?
There wa not Kingdom of Fez.
My English is no good enough for large posts. This forum is not like those of Gibraltar, where each one writtes in his own mother tongue and is understood by the other part.
Steve, I agree with you about what you say that there are many expats in the Costa, who talk badly of Spain and the spaniards. Do they pretend we change to please them? If they don´t adapt to live here, they are free of going back home.
It´s very different in Canary Islands, specially in Tenerife, where I often go. There are a big number of Brits there an increasing every year. They have several newspapers and radio and they look very kind and content of being there. The press say what their readers want to read. This Olive Press confirms what I say.
Guirizano, I have no disagreement with you about Ceuta and Melilla-I feel they are also historic anbachronisms. I take your point about colonialism and Gibraltarians and pawns on a chessboard. I guess it surprises me that Gibraltarians are so keen to remain British, whatever that means, and object to being Spanish whatever that means. I am not clear how different either would feel to a Gibraltarian when they wake up in the morning. Maybe I am unusual in that I would be as happy to be a Spanish European as to be a British European. Both countries have many pro’s and con’s and I feel that less nationalistic fervour is generally better now the world is really a global village. But as I say, I am not in a strong position to appreciate the depth of feeling from Gibraltarians on this issue. Maybe someone on this thread will help educate me on that point? It may not be entirely related but I always believed that if the British Government had ceded The Falklands to Argentina and used a small part of the cost of battle to resettle Falkland Islanders elsewhere instead, it would have avoided a lot of unnecessary deaths of young people on the Belgrano as well as the Brits.
“There wa not Kingdom of Fez”. I think you’ll find there was and polity which is now generally referred to as the Kingdom of Fez, Marcelo, or the Wattassid sultanate, and I think you’ll find that Morocco considers that polity to be a precursor to their own state, much as Spain considers the Kingdom of Castille to be a precursor.
You’ll also find, Marcelo, that Ceuta belonged to the Kingdom of Fez (or whatever they called themselves then), before it was taken by Portugal and I see you don’t dispute the fact that Ceuta has been Spanish *only* since 1668 and after they were allowed a choice to become Spanish.
It amuses me greatly how forgetful some people are of the facts when it doesn’t suit their own point of view.
I’m still waiting for you to answer my question. Where do you draw the line for Gibraltar. Should it belong to Italy because it used to be Roman, or Morocco (or even Baghdad) because it used to be Moorish or Spain because it used to belong to Castille. Or should the people who live there now not be allowed to exercise their democratic right and choose for themselves (just as the people of Ceuta did).
Steve, I’m surprised that you are surprised about their wish to remain British, considering the way they have been treated by Spain over the last 60 odd years. Anyway, surely their reasons are irrelevant. The fact is they have made a democratic choice and that should be respected?
You take my point about pawns on the chessboard and yet there you go again, advocating the removal of a people, who have lived there happily for 7 or more generations, and shunted off to some other place. The worst kind of apartheid style forced removal? You surprise me Steve. And don’t forget. If the Argentine had not invaded in the first place nobody would have died unnecessarily, on the Belgrano or elsewhere…
Steve: Gibraltarians are so keen to remain British because they have a big business with the tax heaven. There are more companies registered in Gibraltar than inhabitants.
All this is allowed by the Goverment of UK in order to continue keeping up the naval basis.
I see that you are not very well informed on gibraltar matters marcelo, and you are also eluding the fact that ceuta and melilla also enjoy taxation benefits. So i see that it’s ok for some but not for others?
The naval presence in gibraltar is minimum, so your argument has no logic. Go and buy some books, magazines on Gibraltar and get your facts right before placing your comments marcelo. You are so in the dark about this matter that it’s not even worth respecting your comments
Marcelo, if Gibraltar is a tax haven then why has it been able to sign OECD Tax Information Exchange Agreements with 18 other jurisdictions? Namely, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Faroe Islands, Finland, France, Germany, Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, Sweden, United Kingdom and the United States. Perhaps you could explain that because it directly contradicts your assertion.
Also, if it’s all about the naval base, then why is that base a small fraction of what it used to be. The same goes for the army garrison and RAF. I’ve asked you a similar question above regarding the MOD, but you’ve failed to answer. Just as you have failed to answer my question about where you draw the line to decide who the “real” Gibraltarians are. It seems to me Marcelo, that when confronted with facts and logic you can’t hack it. Franco died in 1975 Marcelo. It’s time to move on…
Alan,guirizano,
you can talk until you are blue in the face – it will change nothing.
I feel that this thread encapsulates a lot about the situation that exists not only for Gibraltarians but for foreigners (not only Brits) confronted by the attitude of so many Spanish.
There are those like Steve who obviously is’nt living under the threat of demolition or hav’nt suffered personally from the corruption of the Spanish legal system and is all for supporting the descendants of conquistadores who exterminated so many of the indigenous people of the country they call Argentina and who have zero rights to the Falkland Islands – ergo – I’m allright Jack.
Marcelo is a near perfect example of what happens when children are brainwashed into believing a pack of lies and point blank will never turn and confront the truth, as I have said on this thread – there are many Brits who have the selfsame attitude.
I doubt that Marcelo is old enough to know how Spain was in the 60’s – desperately poor and with virtually no modern expertise in anything.
He says that all the foreigners should go home who are’nt prepared to lay down and let themselves be ripped off by a Spanish professional class that is 99% corrupt.
He is too cowardly to admit that it is money and lots of it from northern Europe that pulled his country out of the near starvation and 19th century state that it was in.
Why don’t the Spanish pay back with % all the subsidies they have received from northern Europe, leave the EEC and make their own way in the world.
Like most Spanish he has no idea what is waiting just down the road to hit Spain – desertification.Most Spanish assume that northern Europe will go on subsidising their uneconomic way of life – it’s all coming to an end and very quickly. If they are stupid enough to think that their army can somehow solve their problems by say invading France – they face an horrific bloody wake up call.
This is the problem they are divorced from economic reality. I wish it were different but their minds are closed. When I warned my Spanish neighbours in 2003/4/5/6/7 that they were heasding for a huge downfall they laughed – they are not laughing now.
As Alan said – Franco died in 75 – time to move on. Alan they simply cannot do this – that is the problem.
Stuart
I couldn’t have summed it up better myself. I think it is time to put this thread to rest, after all as you said, we can all go blue in the face arguing all day long, but at the end of the day Gibraltar IS british, and will be british for the forseeable future. So mr Marcelo and company can chew on that cause nothing will change in his lifetime. He will leave this world with the thorn in his side
Yes, Mr. Alan, it´s very possible things come like you say. For that reason we have to tighten screws and convert Gibraltar in something very expensive for UK and see the town converted in a human zoo. That will make thinking.
That’s not going to happen Marcelito, because don’t forget, you’re in the EU now and you can’t do things like that. You were forced to open the frontier because you wanted to join the EU in the first place. Keep dreaming! And don’t forget, Franco died in 1975!
Spanish need to accept that they have so much less general knowledge than British, especially when it comes to education at home! It is really sad that they don’t know any better!
Guirizana: In Europe they are fed up of the gibraltarian issue with Spain.
There are many ways of managing with restrictions without prejudicing Spain.
EU needs not to depend on the russian gas only. They will connect with the two algerian gas line throught Spain, unless they import that gas by ship, but this is much more expensive
Yes Mr Marcelo, things will turn out as i say. And don’t forget that your country’s isolation tactics (FRANCO ERA, THE ONE THAT YOU STILL SEEM TO LIVE IN) didn’t work and will never work. Wake up and stop dreaming of the master plan, because countless generations of your countries politicians have failed miserably. Only your own people (those that work here) will suffer as they did when franco closed the frontier. By the way i think i would like to see the frontier closed, i would probably have another job, more money to travel because remember we have an airport, i could still go anywhere i please
“In Europe they are fed up of the gibraltarian issue with Spain” Any evidence of that Marcelina? I can’t find any, just like I can’t find any evidence for all your other assertions.
I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say about gas??
Marcelo your english is excellent and I am impressed by your never say die attitude, your love of your country, which some of us share, and I did initially think you had something valid to say. Sadly the more I read your posts the more I realise this is not the case. The Gibratarians wish to remain part of the UK. That’s it. Shut up.
Ben: you flatter me when you say my English is good , I know very well that is not truth. I have no difficulty in reading any english book neither in speaking, but it´s difficult for me to express myself in writting. I have to practise.
I know Gibraltarians don´t want the joint sovereingnty with Spain, especially for economic reasons, provided they are very comfortable with their tax heaven for the mafias and facilities to smuggle and to traffic with drugs but we don´t admit they can dispose of a part of our territory. That´s it. Shut up.
The spanish offer was very generous: double nacionality (something you and me can´t have), the most ample autonomy, to go on with their institutions and laws and to negotiate everything. There was a party in Gibraltar called the PGA that wanted this.
Does it matter what reasons the Gibraltarians have for not wanting joint sovereignty with Spain Marcelo? It’s their right to choose, it’s not Spain or anyone else’s right to impose. It might be economic and so what, it could also have something to do with the way Spain treated Gibraltar in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s.
Gibraltar is not a tax haven (“heaven” is something else). I’ve given you good reasons above. TIEAs signed with 18 jurisdictions ring any bells? You seem a bit shy about showing your own evidence for your assertion (and all the other unfounded assertions you make).
Oh, and I have dual nationality. It’s not such a generous offer by Spain. Considering Gibraltar is in the EU it would have made absolutely no difference. It’s a non-offer, of no value at all. If Spain wants to court the Gibraltarians it’s going to have to do a lot better than that!
And the PGA? Did anyone in Gibraltar really vote for them? It’s called democracy Marcelo. I know it’s difficult and you probably prefer the time of Franco when everyone knew their place, but you’ll just have to get used to it.
Having lived in Gibraltar for 2.5 years while serving in the Royal Navy I feel vaguely qualified to comment. Gibraltarians dont want to be British, in fact some of them are openly hostile to members of the UK military who serve there, they just dont want to be Spanish.
TO NICK SCHOFIELD; are you seriously suggesting that because Gibraltar is next to spain that gives them a right of annexation? Adolf Hitler & Saddam Hussein used that argument and not many agreed with them. According to your twisted logic Portugal & Andorra should also be annexed by spain. But hang on, since France is next to spain, and is larger then surely France should annex spain? Do democracy and human rights mean nothing at all to you? Why should today’s Gibraltarian be deprived of democracy just because the modern spanish govt disagrees with a decision taken by their own predecessors in Utrecht 1713? Gibraltar was in fact CEDED to Great Britain….should the fact that the present spanish govt laments this nullify it…..along with the human and democratic rights of 30,000 human beings?